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Planets in Fall, Vargottama

 
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:05 am    Post subject: Planets in Fall, Vargottama Reply with quote

Planets in Fall, Vargottama

Somewhere in the last few days I read a question James asked about vargottama planets in their fall. I can't find this question, so am posting a new topic. This question is easy to answer with searches in AstroDatabank (for those of us oldsters who still have the original program on XP computers). I did three quick searches for the ascendant in a specific mansion of a planet's exaltation or fall. Only a few charts came up for each search (Krishnamurti ayanamsa).

ADB search: Ascendant in Libra, Chitra mansion, Sun in fall in Libra, vargottama:
Allman, Dana, American musician, the daughter of rocker Gregg Allman and an early marriage. She has had little contact with her dad though she sings and plays like him, sounds and looks like him...She and her son live in a mobile-home. (Sun 0.9 Libra)

Lecointe, Alain, French perpetrator of several rapes committed in Europe. In 1986: September 18, December 18 and 23. In 1987: March 17 and 25. (Sun 0.8 Libra)

AIDS 13058, American homosexual male; died of AIDS 8/27/1986. (Sun 0.9 Libra)

ADB search: Ascendant in Capricorn, U. Ashada mansion; Jupiter in fall in Capricorn, vargottama
Homosexual 11332 American homosexual (Jupiter 1.2 Capricorn)

Lesbian 11390, American female homosexual (Jupiter 0.1 Capricorn)

Palmist 24410, British palmist who learned her craft while living in India. Overweight, she is intelligent and severe. (Jupiter 2.4 Capricorn)

In comparison, an exalted Venus in Pisces:

ADB search: Ascendant in Pisces, Reveti; Venus in Pisces, vargottama; Only two charts came up with this combination, both belonging to physically attractive men who attained "name and fame."

Ertel, Suitbert, German educator, psychologist and astrologer...Professor Emeritus Dr Ertel is the world's leading investigator of Gauquelin planetary effects, on which he has authored many scientific articles including a bibliography of Gauquelin's publications...He died on 25 February 2017, shortly before turning 85. (Venus 29 Pisces)

Hirsch, Judd, American actor, a performer on Broadway from 1964 who received a Tony nomination in 1979 for his role in the Pulitzer Prize-winning play, "Talley's Folly." He won the Emmy twice for his co-starring role in the series "Taxi," which ran from 1978-1983...Hirsch came from a background of dense poverty and parents who never seemed to connect as a couple. (Venus 29 Pisces)

In these two charts Venus vargottama eclipses the "old age" affliction of 29 degrees in the sign.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a way to refine the ADB search for Venus vargottama in Pisces (Pisces 26 deg 40 to 30) and will edit this post and add more names and biographies later today.

EDIT addition 14 August:

This topic is related to planets in their fall, but it’s an interesting contrast to compare vargottama exalted planets. Here’s the complete list from an ADB search for vargottama Venus exalted in Pisces. This can only happen in the lunar mansion of Reveti in Pisces in the last navamsa. Most of these people have extensive biographies on ADB, and all data is Rodden rated A or AA.

Anderson, Robert: American entrepreneur and corporate executive, self-made oil magnate and cattle baron (Venus 27 Pisces)

Backus, Jim: American actor in vaudeville and radio who was on screen from 1942 in films such as "Bright Victory," "Pat and Mike" and "Crazy Mama." He is primarily known as the voice of the myopic curmudgeon Mr. Magoo in cartoons. (Venus 29.8 Pisces)

Ertel, Suitbert: German educator, psychologist and astrologer...Professor Emeritus Dr Ertel is the world's leading investigator of Gauquelin planetary effects. (Venus 29.3 Pisces)

Hirsch, Judd: American actor, a performer on Broadway from 1964 who received a Tony nomination in 1979 for his role in the Pulitzer Prize-winning play, "Talley's Folly." He won the Emmy twice for his co-starring role in the series "Taxi," which ran from 1978-1983.

McEvoy, Frances: American professional astrologer who writes skilled columns for NCGR journals and is a board member of the organization, as well as the president of its Boston chapter. (Venus 28.9 Pisces)

Rose, Pete: American major league baseball player for 24 seasons. In the center of one of the most talked about controversies in baseball history. (Venus 29.9 Pisces)

Wilson, Brittney Hana: American baby who arrived rapidly. (Venus 28.7)

Wright, Marion: American Mensan and cellist who took lessons from the age of 11 and played with the Indiana Philharmonic. (Venus 29.3)

AIDS 1169 Mexican homosexual maleAIDS. (Venus 29.6)

Homosexual 12600: American homosexual (Venus 27.0)

AstroData bank gives no other information on the last two men, but it seems obvious that these cases of exalted vargottama Venus in the ascendant mansion describes very successful careers in diverse fields. Reveti has been translated as "wealthy." Pushan, the deity of this mansion is said to give wealth and prosperity. (However, much additional material that is written about Reveti in modern texts may not actually belong there. I think it's usually best to return to the original and very brief descriptions of the ancient nakshatras as related to deities.)

It's interesting that so far the two searches for vargottama planets in their fall resulted in only two or three cases each. But the search for exalted vargottama Venus brought up ten birth charts which means that the indiviudals attained special recognition for various reasons.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:39 am; edited 3 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi theresa,

thanks for bringing this up in a separate thread... so, if i can paraphrase you - a planet that is vargottoma is not good if it is in a sign of fall or detriment... this seems to be what you are trying to say with your examples... correct me if i have this wrong.. thanks..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
...so, if i can paraphrase you - a planet that is vargottoma is not good if it is in a sign of fall or detriment... this seems to be what you are trying to say with your examples...

This is what the data seems to say so far, but I'm going to post some more ADB searches with comments. It's interesting that somehow in all the years I've had ADB, it never occurred to me to search for vargottama planets in their fall. So your question was a good one to inspire research. Questions are the best teacher!!

Indian astrology has no detriment as a planet in the opposite sign from its own sign casts an aspect to a planet in its own sign, so has a relationship to its "home." So we only have (in western terms) a planet in the sign of its fall.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

i also meant to thank you for pointing out that planets in indian astrology are not in detriment.. i was unaware of that.. i am curious as to what you find in other examples.. i will keep a look out for this as well and use it as a focal point... in the example chart i am using in the other thread on sudarshanka chakra, the person has venus in fall and it is in both the rasi and D9 chart.. cheers james

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10636
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your interest, James. The reason I am keeping the planet in the same lunar mansion as the ascendant is to place the focus on the individual (Ascendant, first house). We know that planets in the birth chart can refer to any area of life or even other people depending on house placement and rulership. Planets may not specifically relate to the owner of the birth chart. Also, we'll be able to see if the planet in vargottama exaltation or fall reflects any characteristics said to be in a mansion.

It's great that some actual research is being done here on Skyscript such as exploring the Sudarshan Chakra as you and AJ are doing.

EDIT: Additional names have now been added to the list of vargottama exalted Venus in Pisces charts in the August 13 post above.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are all the names that came up for an ADB search for Vargottama Venus in fall in Virgo when the ascendant mansion is Chitra. The Virgo navamsa runs from 26 deg 40 to 30 Virgo in the Chitra mansion. All data is Rodden rated A or AA.

Lesbian 8929 (Venus 26.7)

Diana, Racer: American Wiccan and clairaudient; red hair down to her waist, attended Gamblers Anonymous. (Venus 28.9 Virgo)

Kerry, Alexandra: Daughter of Senator John Forbes Kerry; Attended festival in see-through black dress (highly criticized) (Venus 27.4 Virgo)

Lesbian 8229 (Venus 27.6 Virgo)

Bratton, William J.: Los Angeles police chief, a police force riddled with problems; Ability to force change, brash; Feud with Mayor Giuliani which forced from his New York City position. (Venus 28.1 Virgo)

Moon, Warren: One of the first black starting quarterbacks in the NFL; Charged with beating his wife. (Venus 28.2 Virgo)

Mariano, Eileen: Noted family (Venus 28.4 Virgo)

Hooker, Cameron: American homicide, kidnapper, murderer and sadist (Venus 29.1 Virgo)

This small segment of Virgo containing a vargottama debilitated Venus has more than a tinge of a troubled or dark side connected to unpleasantness and scandal. Today homosexuality is becoming more socially accepted, but the birth data in ADB is from an earlier time period. So we are seeing both Lesbian and gay charts with planets vargottama in fall. (See first post under this topic for Sun in Libra and Jupiter in Capricorn.)

Contrast these debilitated Venus personalities with the success stories of Venus vargottama exalted in Pisces in the post above. It does seem that in general exalted vargottama planets are linked to career success and social recognition and acceptance. However, as usual in astrology, there isn't a hard black line between the effects of exalted and debilitated planets, but there is a general tone if all data is taken together. So far there is no dire misfortune or criminal activity connected to exalted planets in ascendant mansions.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comparison of Saturn vargottama in exaltation and fall

Saturn vargottama in fall in Aries, ascendant and Saturn in Ashvini
ADB search = total of 4 charts

Andros, Phil: Gay pornographer and porno writer (Saturn 0.6 Aries)

Suicide, gunshot 1606: violent rampage, shock treatments, paranoia (Saturn 2.0 Aries)

Carpenter, Garth: professional astrologer and author; trained as school teacher (Saturn 3.3 Aries)

Moss, Helen: Railroad engineer, business owner (bar)

Saturn vargottama exalted in Libra, ascendant and Saturn in Chitra
ADB search = total of 7 charts

Berger, Tom: American novelist (Saturn 3.3 Libra)

Bergonzi, Carlo: Opera baritone and tenor, handsome and romantic looking (Saturn 3.1 Libra)

House, Lawrence: Medical case involving liver transplant (Saturn 2.9 Libra)

Simeoni, Sara: Italian athlete, women's high jump, Olympic gold (Saturn 0.4 Libra)

Aids 12481: homosexual diagnosed with AIDS (Saturn 0.4 Libra)

Flight attendant 1035: Brazilian flight attendant (Saturn 2.7 Libra)

Secretary 12395: American secretary (Saturn 1.8 Libra)

The most interesting thing about this comparison is that in a few cases Saturn reflects the lords of the signs (Mars for gunshot and railroad engineer, Aries; Venus for the arts, Libra).

To contrast vargottama exalted Jupiter with debilitated Jupiter in the first post on this link, there were only two cases in ADB.

Jupiter exalted vargottama, ascendant and Jupiter in U. Ashada

Astrologer 5972: astrologer and author, teaches tarot and palmistry (Jupiter 27.9 Sagittarius)

Homosexual 13627 (Jupiter 26.6 Sagittarius)

One would expect more than two cases of a vargottama exalted Jupiter in the ascendant mansion, but perhaps the fact that this navamsa is in the "old age" part of Sagittarius negates or modifies the vargottama position. There is probably no factor in astrology that isn't modified by other factors which is why astrologers in general have little or no interest in research.

To contrast vargottama exalted Sun with debilitated Sun in the first post on this link, there were only 5 cases in ADB.

Sun exalted vargottama, ascendant and Sun in Ashvini

McLean, Tony: American impressario, founder of Broadway in Boston; theater work, oversaw productions (Sun 0.1 Aries, no debility due to Sun in “extreme infancy.”

Tonnekreek, Hummie van de: Dutch editor-in-chief of gossip magazine (Sun 2.9 Aries)

Homosexual 13277 (Sun 3.3 Aries)

Lesbian 12984 (Sun 1.3 Aries)

Suicide: jumped 7961 (Sun 1.2 Aries)

Here we have the contradiction of a vargottama exalted Sun in a section of the zodiac termed “infancy,” considered a weak position for planets. If we look at the dispositor of the Sun:

Tony McLean (theater work): Mars is in Taurus in the 2nd house
Tonnekreek (gossip editor-in-chief): Mars in Aquarius, 11th house
Suicide: Mars in Scorpio, 8th house
Lesbian 12984: Mars in Capricorn, 10th house
Homosexual 13277: Mars in Capricorn, 10th house (11th, cusp as house center)

It does seem that the more we look at vargottama planets, the more contradictions appear. Though very successful people generally have an exalted planet in the ascendant mansion, and in general very negative lives have a debilitated planet in the ascendant mansion, this doesn't hold across the board in all cases. A main contradiction for vargottama planets is that these vargottama navamsas fall in the infancy or old age degrees of signs, which immediately sets up a contradiction in interpretation.

Searching ADB for the remaining vargottama planets, there are only a few cases each, so I'm going to shift to planets in general (in exaltation or fall) in signs and mansions and post the results on the sidereal part of the forum rather than here on the Indian forum. It may be that there is little or no difference between the vargottama navamsa for a planet and a sign or mansion in general for planets in exaltation or debility.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

the info off the examples seems inconclusive... i wouldn't give up though.. in the example i gave of my friend hamish who has venus in virgo vargottama, i would say the negative results have been lived over the course of his life...

one idea that i keep on circling back to is the idea of triplicity rulers and how some people seem to have the first part of their life go a certain way, and it changes for better or worse in the later part of their life... this is a separate concept to explore, but one i have been comtemplaing lately.. astrology is funny... we attempt to get a read on life via astrology and sometimes in works better then other times.. maybe it can't work for all of it..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
The info off the examples seems inconclusive... i wouldn't give up though.. in the example i gave of my friend hamish who has venus in virgo vargottama, i would say the negative results have been lived over the course of his life...

We certainly don't get a cut and dried picture of good or bad vargottama planets, and it's true that from birth the planets move and may manifest only at certain times in the life. I'll repeat here what I just now this morning added to my post above after noting people who have an exalted vargottama Sun in Aries. James, you replied before I editited the post to add the Sun.

Therese wrote:
Quote:
It does seem that the more we look at vargottama planets, the more contradictions appear. Though very successful people generally have an exalted planet in the ascendant mansion, and in general very negative lives have a debilitated planet in the ascendant mansion, this doesn't hold across the board in all cases. A main contradiction for vargottama planets is that these vargottama navamsas fall in the infancy or old age degrees of signs, which immediately sets up a contradiction in interpretation.

James wrote:
Quote:
One idea that i keep on circling back to is the idea of triplicity rulers and how some people seem to have the first part of their life go a certain way, and it changes for better or worse in the later part of their life... this is a separate concept to explore, but one i have been contemplating lately.

This is a concept worth exploring, but are there astrologers with the discipline to do this with enough charts to explore patterns?

Quote:
Astrology is funny... we attempt to get a read on life via astrology and sometimes in works better then other times.. maybe it can't work for all of it..

It's like we're being told, "If you want to see God laugh, try to find something concrete and definite that always works in astrology!" Astrology is like ever shifting sands that are never still. Only spiritually realized masters (such as Sri Yukteswar in Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi) can see beneath the shifting sands to comprehend what is really there.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

thanks for the additional example with vargottama sun in aries...

i think part of the challenge for us are these categories that really don't say much of anything... lesbian - homosexual - suicide... the most interesting categories might be the ones where the person themselves comment subjectively on their life - it was rewarding life, or it was a bed of pain and suffering, or? this is one reason why i wanted to explore hamishs chart in more detail on this thread.. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10636

i continue to believe it will be an interesting exercise for me and aj, although we are reaching a stalemate with the Sudarshana Chakra Dasa - it seems... i have a lot more to share on hamishs life as i think his life makes for an interesting study from a few different points of views, not just that he has venus in virgo vargottama..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't looked into that topic, James, as AJ didn't want to have conversations with me. Also time is so short now, and Saturn slowness has taken over my life. I estimate that everything takes 75 percent longer to complete than it did a few years ago. It's really interesting that there's no way I can make my body move faster than Saturn dictates!
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

i have compassion for your situation.. that is the place we are all headed.. peace and good will to you... james
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