True vs Mean Node - Imprisonment

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True vs Mean Node - Imprisonment

I have prepared a total of 53 cases.


Used :

1 - Krishnamurti Ayanamsa : 23°45'56" for Year 2000.
Speed of precession is 50.2388475.
2 - Harmonic 16,64,256,1024 and 4096
3 - Transits, Solar and Lunar Returns
4 - Secondary Progression rate : 1 sidereal day = 1 sidereal year
5 - Tertiary Progression rate : 1 sidereal day = 1 sidereal rmonth
6 - Transit Lunar Phases
7 - Progressed Lunar Phases : I took the data of lunar phases from another program,
because Zet does not calculate these lunar phases.
8- Zet AstrologySoftware


https://ia601404.us.archive.org/15/item ... onment.pdf
https://archive.org/details/@cemalcicek

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Quoted from Linchi's research:
The total number of cases are 53. In all cases the mean node shows the imprisonment, whereas only 19 cases show true node.
Wonderful work, Cemal, and a demonstration of techniques which require special software and a mind capable of great precision. The astrology of the future, as I've said before.

I'm happy to see that your research supports the Mean Node which has been used through the centuries, and has always been used in India even after the "True Node" became popular in modern times. Users of the so-called True Node sometimes forget that we can accurately know the position of the node only when the Moon is on the ecliptic plane (of which the authors of the Betz Ephemeris remind us). This occurs twice every revolution of the Moon around the earth.
Martha Betz and Keith Betz, The Betz Ephemeis 1940-2040, Production Works, 2001, p. 3. (Lahiri ayanamsa)

From another much less rigorous research source, Celeste Teal notes in her book Lunar Nodes: "When used as a timing device in progressions, it is also the mean nodes that appear to be the most accurate." (p. 3)
Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:18 am, edited 6 times in total.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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linchi - thanks for sharing your work and following up on my question of the use of true verses mean nodes!

i think it is like my friend pointed out - a nature-nurture type debate...

my nodal axis changes nakshatras depending on whether i use true or mean nodes... i notice from thereses chart that hers does too! i don't know, but i would be curious to hear thereses view on it from this angle of nakshatra involvement... thanks...

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You're welcome, James.

Whether with only Nakshatra positions can you decide, which node is the right one, I do not know. But I don't believe that you can be 100% sure. Firstly, with true node you would have the node as Vargottama but with mean node not. Secondly, the Nakshatra lord and sub-lord would be Saturn-Jupiter . With the mean node, nakshatra and sub-lord would be Mercury-Mercury. If I were you I would compare these two points with events.

The positions of the nodes in divisional charts (D-9, D-10 ..etc) can still be checked. In my opinion, these three points would be a safe method.
https://archive.org/details/@cemalcicek

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James wrote:
My nodal axis changes nakshatras depending on whether i use true or mean nodes... i notice from therese’s chart that hers does too! i don't know, but i would be curious to hear therese’s view on it from this angle of nakshatra involvement... thanks...
First I have to say that I’m greatly relieved that two of Linchi’s research projects have shown that the mean node is victorious. For now I’m also not bothering with the so-called true node. But for years I went back and forth between mean and true, trying to figure out which node was valid.

I’ve decided that I have to begin with two suppositions: First, the sidereal zodiac has always been here for eons, and its true measurement is close if not exactly precise using the Krishnamurti ayanamsa. This zodiac re-surfaced in Babylonian times, but (according to Edgar Cayce) was alive and well in a Persian culture around 7000 or 8000 B.C.

Secondly I accept that the 27 equal division lunar zodiac has likewise been here for eons. India knew that the stars and asterisms had effects, but didn’t know where the boundaries were. These were re-discovered and set in place around the time that the 12 sign zodiac made its way to India. So I begin with these two suppositions. My Rahu remains in the same mansion with both the mean and true node, Hasta in Virgo. Mean Ketu, however, is only 8 minutes from moving from Saturn’s mansion in Pisces to Reveti, Mercury’s mansion. Reveti is true Ketu's mansion.

A major problem in considering the interpretation of the nodes is the house system since the nodes operate within houses---that is if you accept that houses exist. For years I’ve used the Indian equal house system (Raman-Vehlow), even for KP work. I reject Placidus for events, but assume that is has some psychological value.

Ketu is important in my chart since it’s the Ascendant’s mansion. So here is how I see Ketu operating in my chart: I know from transits that Ketu is the very worst point in my chart. I almost always brings something unpleasant, something to cry about or just general depression. When transiting Ketu recently passed over my ascendant, my downstairs was flooded, my landscaping was destroyed by ignorant “gardeners,??? and my sister died. (Saturn rules 3rd house of younger siblings.) Also I've had a great deal of monetary expenditure, much more than usual. (Saturn rules 2nd house of resources.)

O.K. so Ketu is bad news! Mean Ketu is in Saturn’s mansion in the 4th house. (Thus its transit brought destruction to the home.) Saturn is in its fall in Aries in the 5th house. Saturn rules depression and is something of a loner as I am. The 5th is supposed to deal with mental processes.

True Ketu is in a mansion of Mercury. Mercury is in the 12th house, and it’s another topic to decide what the 12th house rules. It’s supposed to have to do with losses, and I did experience a great loss when Ketu’s dasa began. (But debilitated Saturn in 5th would also describe a loss.) But also good things happened when Ketu’s dasa began as my son was married. This would suit mean Ketu’s star lord Saturn in the 5th with Jupiter.

Mean Ketu is in Jupiter’s sub (neutral for Sagittarius ascendant) which is well placed in the 5th house in its own trigon in Aries, a fortunate house. I have three children, and in general my life has been blessed and fortunate. Thus (according to KP and Khullar Kalamsa theory) the final result of Saturn’s mansion will be good, thanks to Jupiter’s sub.

Also in my navamsa chart Taurus rises which puts mean Ketu in the 7th in Scorpio. My husband’s chart has a Scorpio ascendant with the Moon and Jupiter. But also, it's Ketu (loss) so partner dies before self.

Watching transits to a node can help to isolate the node’s mansion as the mansion lord should be emphasized by its house placement and houses ruled. Since I invariably feel sad or depressed whenever the Moon transits over Ketu (I don’t even have to check the sign position of the Moon), this is a good indication that Ketu is in debilitated Saturn’s mansion rather than true Ketu’s Mercury mansion.

Well, long answer to a short question. Apologies!!
Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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James, using KP theory for mean nodes, transits over your Rahu should activate Mercury in the 5th and the 8th and 11th houses ruled by Mercury. Transits over Ketu should activate the Moon in the 1st and the 9th ruled by the Moon. Also affairs of the house where each node is located. The KP and Khullar systems also say that the nodes bring events related to their sign rulers which is Mars for your Rahu and Venus for your Ketu.

With so many factors to consider it would be difficult to design research that could give a clear answer about how the nodes operate. Then also the nodes are supposed to give the results of any planet conjoining them.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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thanks linchi and therese for all your comments on mean verses true node..

the reason astrologers fuss over these types of topics is because i don't believe there is a definitive answer to them.. it is like the sidereal verses tropical question... i really don't think there is firm answer on this! but i appreciate how you two seem to think their is and that you have answered it!

i liked steven forrest's article on this here...
https://www.forrestastrology.com/blogs/ ... true-nodes

therese, thanks for the additional comments on how i can understand the role of rahu and ketu better.. i appreciate it!

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Though like Celeste Teal, Steven Forrest keeps an open attitude about mean and true nodes, his personal experience is interesting. He writes:
I would never be dogmatic about it, but I work with the mean node myself. My reasons are practical more than theoretical. Here is what I have learned and experienced. Occasionally, someone sits with me who has the mean and true nodes separated, as is typical, by a distance of only a degree or so. But for this person that difference is enough to put the two nodes in different signs.

Maybe the mean lunar south node is in 29EII 372 and the true one is in 0Ea 432, for example. I view such people as precious or at least as excellent lab rats! When I was trying to sort all this out I have told such people both of the possible karmic stories and asked them which one felt right. I also compared the two versions with my subjective impressions of them as individuals and with the shapes of their outward lives. Far more valuable than any technical astronomical argument, these human truths are astrology's Supreme Court.
https://www.forrestastrology.com/blogs/ ... true-nodes
Every anecdotal story from an astrologer helps, just as Celeste Teal finds the mean node more accurate in progressions. Steven gives a clue as to how to study the nodes. Especially as planets transit the nodes, keep a record of events to see if they point to other planets or planets in houses. It's research that anyone can do.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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As astrologers we are always happy if we find concrete support for an astrological principle. Yesterday I had some clear support for the Mean Node of the Moon. A very sudden and traumatic life changing event happened in my family, instigated by a young woman. Relationships (said to be connected to the Moon's nodes) were permanently changed. Here are the transits in effect at that time:

4 Sag 00 (my natal ascendant--Krishnamurti)

5 Sco 03 natal Mercury cusp 12
5 Sco 38 transit mean Ketu (south node)
7 Sco 06 transit 'true' Ketu

5 Lib 41 transit Moon (female, semi-sextile Mercury, 3' orb transit Ketu)

17 Psc 59 natal 'true' Ketu
16 Psc 32 natal mean Ketu
16 Sco 49 transit Mars (house 12)
16 Ari 56 transit Uranus (semi-sextile natal Ketu)
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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Turning to astronomy...
True Node is a misnomer because the Nodes have no mass.
It is like saying True or Mean Wind.
And as per the NASA, the succession of several orbital elements or Keplerian elements are needed to completely describe an orbit mathematically. And that is why it is called 'Mean' because they involve a 'succession of several measurements'.
We think of 'Mean' as an 'approximation' of something but the NASA sees it as 'several measurements'.
Blessings!