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thanks ouranos,

yes - neechabhanga, i hear about often in these indian astro books... it is like sprinkling salt on everything to make it all taste better, lol... neechabhanga means cancellation of debilitation.. neecha means debilitation or debilitated..in the 3 books i have on yogas only dr. k s charak addresses this directly on page 155-156 of his book - yogas in astrology... he calls it neecha-bhanga raja yoga..

in fact charaks views on this are quite fascinating and he gives more examples of the cancellation of debility then the ones you've listed above.. however he also says some really interesting things too about these particular set ups in charts..let me quote just a few of the more interesting comments he makes..

"Neecha or debilitated planets, because of their inherent weakness, generally produce adverse results during their dasha periods. When a Neecha-Bhanaga yoga is present, the debilitation gets cancelled and is said to produce benefic results. It may also be noted here that debilitated planets do not always produce adverse results only. Debilitation introduces an element of humility in comparison with exaltation which tends to express itself with foce and arrogance. According to the Manasagari, debilitation of different planets confers on the native the following features, not all of them necessarily adverse :" he goes on to list comments on all the planets out to saturn including rahu and ketu.. and then -
" It will be noted that the texts do not ascribe totally adverse results to debilitated planets except perhaps to the Moon, Rahu and Ketu. When a canellation of debilitation occurs, the results improve. Debilitated planets, however, are devoid of strength and vigour. They thus tend to make one vulnerable to ill-health. Their dasha-antadasha also tends to subject the native to some humiliation, even if minor and temporary."

he doesn't mention the example you give of cancellation of debility via placement in the navamsha chart, but this is perhaps only one example where the different texts give different criteria for cancellation of debility... dr. k. s. charaks books are quite good and thorough as far as i can tell from reading a number of authors to this point...

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Very interesting James,
'Humiliation' seems a good term to describe a debilitated planet. I have heard other astrologers describe it as a 'lack of power to act'
I am thinking of a debilitated Venus as being cheated on or Mars as a kid being bullied at school.
To narrow down the area of life affected, an old teacher of mine used the decans and the terms. as Houses so to speak, and not so much as dignities.
For example,
LEO
1st Decan – Our children and their life. Early life
2nd Decan - Our love life and pleasures. Mid-life.
3rd Decan - Partys, celebrations, missions carried out for political, religious or commercial purposes, typically involving travel, End of life.

Quote: "Through Teucer the Babylonian’s books could be acquired many things more than beautiful, and through the zodiacal signs which are in the sky and by (the stars) rising together with each of them and through the so-called decans, obtaining resources of all kinds in different issues. In fact each of the signs numbers three decans, having various forms, one of which bears an ax, the other showing some different image, if you engrave their images and their shapes on a ring bezel, you will be protected from any injury. These things [have told] Teucer and the most qualified scholars in the study of celestial phenomena in his own way." (The Paranatellonta in ancient Greek astrological literature, Lucia Bellizia translated from Italian into English by Margherita Fiorello.
It seems to be related to the position of the Stars, like if the planet is in the arm or the shoulder of the constellation.
And is it Vettius Valens who used the progression of the ASC by terms to determine the length of a person's life. Again, it looks as if your ASC had entered a 'House position or placement' so to speak, not so much a dignity.

Question remains: Do we look at planets by signs, terms and decans for what they really are?
Blessings!

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'Humiliation' seems a good term to describe a debilitated planet. I have heard other astrologers describe it as a 'lack of power to act'
In traditional western, that would more likely be accidental debility. You can have an essentially debilitated planet that has plenty of power to act, such as in Hitler's chart.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf

Also, an accidentally debilitated planet can still have power to act if it aspects the ascendant lord, such as Saturn in Ted Bundy's chart where the ascendant lord is angular and receives a cadent Saturn in detriment.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bundy,_Ted

I would be more specific and say a debilitated planet that has power to act will more likely do so in difficult or negative ways for the native or for others unless they work at it. This would be especially so if not received by a dignified planet that lords it but in Bundy's chart I would argue the Sun takes on the energy of Saturn by receiving it.

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ouranos

this concept of a planet being debilitated and having a 'lack of power to act' is an interesting one i would like to talk about... it doesn't jive with my understanding of planets in angles having the power to act.. i could see it in planets that are in the cadent houses, but not with planets on the angles.. so, i think this idea is not accurate... perhaps the debilitated planets don't have the ability or power to act in the best interests of the planet because they are in the wrong sign to be able to do so... but that would be a more qualified way of understanding what these astrologers mean when they say that..

i suppose it gets more complicated when one introduces the concept of decans, terms or nakshatras too! they are like layers of an onion and one wonders which layer to go with when frying up some onions or astrology as the case may be.. i go back to the position of these debilitated planets in relation to the angles as i see this as important..

i suppose we can layer in aspects too and whether a planet has the ability to transfer its energy for it to be released thru a different planet that is acting with it in collaboration.. this is what these neechabhanga yogas are basically doing... using aspect relationships to say whether the planet has its debilitation cancelled or not.. it is all very interesting! i still think the angles of the chart are of supreme importance in relation to whether a planet has the ability to act or not.. just how it acts is another matter!

tanit

your examples are interesting, especially if you flip them into sidereal! they look very different in the 2 systems.. your comments are kind of in line with mine - "an accidentally debilitated planet can still have power to act if it aspects the ascendant lord" - which is kind of like what the neechabhanga yoga is saying, but somewhat differently as you are using planets in trine and that doesn't happen in the neechabhanga yogas to my understanding.. in your example of ted bundy depending on the zodiac one uses, saturn would have the ability to act by being in the same sign as the ascendant without any connection to the ruler of the ascendant.. it would be especially malefic by being the malefic of the opposite sect using hellenistic ideology... frankly if i was going to focus on what planet or planets in bundys chart were the problem, i would be focused more on venus and mercury conjunct and square the nadir and ascendant respectively followed closely behind by the mars-moon conjunction to south node... so, maybe it is difficult when we view all of this differently....

i have always found bundys chart to be a challenge to understand..i think it works better in sidereal with the mars in scorpio and mercury in scorpio being the important lead planet to his sun and square the ascendant... hard to know just where the perversion is centered, but i suppose it is easy to throw it on a 12th house debilitated saturn... i don't see it that way myself...saturn certainly wouldn't have helped, but i don't think it was the driver in his chart.. i think mercury was..

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The concept of 'inability to act' comes from listening to a video of Arthyr W. Chadbourne on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkeoE3I ... =chadow723
By the way, I enjoyed his book 'Ancient Whispers from Chaldea'
Not sure I buy his idea either but I think it would be more appropriate to say 'inability to produce good results' as Chadbourne compares it to a battery in the first 10 minutes of his video.
There is a distinction though we need to make between Signs and Houses. For me the Sign, Triplicity, Term, Decans are the true dignities. They are the celestial influences.
Houses, being the terrestrial influences will make it more 'important' if Angular, which can be for good or bad. And I can understand where there might be a confusion sometimes.
Looking at Bundy's chart, I don't know him too well but having the Ruler of the 7th in detriment in Leo in the 12th trine its ruler (Sun). He is said to have been easy going with strangers (12th House) favored by the trine to the Sun. Did he ever got married? I read that he got married at the end of his life (Sun in the 4th) trine Saturn in the 12th (while being in jail).
Anyway, thank you both for this interesting discussion!

Cheers!
Ouranos
Blessings!