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Debilitated planet giving good results
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 688

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:22 pm    Post subject: Debilitated planet giving good results Reply with quote

I was reading an article on Yogas in Hindu astrology which was about the debilitation of a planet getting cancelled and giving good result, when the debilitated planet by sign, or house is related to its Ruler by placement, aspect or conjunction.
And I looked up at some charts of celebrities in Western astrology.

Lady Gaga - Mercury in Pisces (detriment) conjunct Jupiter (Ruling) at MC
À 17 years old, after an audition, she was accepted, among 20 students in the world at the Faculty of the Tisch School of the Arts of New York University.

Celine Dion - Mercury in Pisces (detriment) in the 8th House conjunct Venus (Exalted) and trine Neptune (ruler of Pisces). She did not pursue schooling as a child and she had an inferiority complex, but she met a man, Eddy Marnay (her first songwriter, Venus) who taught her how to behave and express herself in public.

Superman - This character was launched under a conjunction of Mars (Ruler in Aries) conjunct Saturn (Fall).

I am not sure how much a debilitated planet can be lifted but I would like to hear from other people if they have witnessed in their own chart or other cases similar occurrences.

Thank you,
Ouranos
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ouranos,

it is an interesting question which raises a different question to me... does one use indian astrology techniques in the tropical zodiac? it seems that some astrologers do... alternatively if you look at these charts in sidereal, the mercury is no longer in pisces!

your examples are good ones... mercury station about to go direct in gagas chart seems quite strong by planetary phase.. how does an astrolger factor this into the equation of strength of the planet? does it have any significance, or does it overshadow the sign position?? my feeling is it is more important then sign position.. i was reading recently that robert zoller believed both zodiacs work.. this is where i am at presently too...

i think it becomes a question of what does an astrologer emphasize with so many options to choose from? i don't think there is any answer to this question other then the answer the individual astrologer has to make on this.. thanks for asking this question! james
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srsedna



Joined: 22 May 2019
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure I have read about this phenomenon in western, tropical astrology books too. In my case it applies because I have Venus in Scorpio (detriment) conjunct Pluto (outer ruler) and trine Mars (inner ruler). Am doing great in areas touched by that Venus by rulership, exaltation, presence and aspects!
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both James and Srsedna for sharing your own experience.

I was reading another yoga (or planetary configuration) from the Vedic tradition when all the planets remain in between Rahu and Ketu.
They call it the silent killer.
It is a hazardous position in the birth chart that can ruin your life. Like thé Corona virus since April 2020 in Tropical and February 2020 in Sidereal.
Of course, the Moon will change this configuration half of the time during the month.
In our Tropical view, this refers to an Hemispheric Pattern where all our attention is drawn to one area of our life and with the blank space it creates we are being forced to evaluate our relationships.

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Ouranos
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ouranos,

studying all those yogas will get your head running in a number of different directions.. there are so many of them, it is impossible to keep track of them all...

raman says kalasarpa yoga is not found in the classical astrological literature.. how this yoga gained currency and gathered a sinister meaning is not clear according to bv raman.. so what about all the planets hemmed it by ketu to rahu? raman tends to downplay the importance of this set up either way... interestingly i was looking at two charts the past few days - ghislaine maxwell and brian wilson of beach boy fame... both of them qualify for this kalasarpa yoga..

i agree with you that looking at this particular yoga draws attention to marc edmund jones hemisphere patterns or emphasis with 1/2 the houses left blank.. that in itself is significant and worth exploring..

anyway, my friend tells me not to get bogged down or to put too much emphasis on yogas in indian astrology... after having read 3 books on them - ramans 300 important combinations, charak's yogas in astrology and dr shanker adawals book - yogas - i tend to agree with him!

back to your original question about can a debilitated planet be lifted out of it's state or turn into a positive via a close connection to the ruler or exalted planet of the sign? i think the yogas do surprise me in the way that you suggest.. i personally like the way they are able to turn upside down some of the ways we have of processing debilitated planets or the malefics via certain set ups - yogas.. your examples are a good start, so long as you use the approach via tropical in the examples given!
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sound advice James!
What keeps bugging me all the time with Hindu astrology is that their aphorisms come down to health and wealth or marital discord and miscarriage.
But I can totally understand where they are coming from.
A couple months ago, on another forum, I read a Horary chart about an arranged marriage in India by reading the 1st/7th in relationship to the 10th House. How much is the community going to accept this union seems more relevant than the relationship itself! At least, that's what I thought.
Yet, India has so much to offer in terms of spirituality and wisdom.
Thank you for taking the time to reply during these times we have to downplay our expectations.
Ouranos
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is similar to the concept of reception in traditional western astrology. Robert Hand talks about this in various presentations on reception where if a debilitated planet is aspected and received by its ruler and the ruler itself is dignified, the debilitated planet functions well or at least better. An example is where he mentions Bush's chart and how his sun is received, even if by square. https://www.skyscript.co.uk/rhand.html

Lady Gaga's Mercury is received and aspected by its ruler, which is very dignified.
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Ouranos



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Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Tanit for this interesting link!
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Ouranos!

don't get me wrong! i don't know enough to comment with authority, but it is interesting how many yogas there are and how some of them cancel out negatives - which is good! what i think i like about all this is the idea that there is so much we don't know.. i find it easier to fall back on my ignorance then my knowledge! it is more reliable and forces me to be humble.. at the same time i would like to know something too!

i like what tanit said as well... thanks tanit!
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own view is that in a natal chart a debiliated planet shows one which is not in its own natural climate so to speak - and so there is a degree of difficulty or stress associated with it, but emergent from that stress is often a huge amount of creativity. Dignity here is more like orthodoxy and debility more like unorthodoxy - whether that's "good" or "bad" is probably too simplistic. Like a lot of things, it can have some stressful sides, but also some really useful and creative sides.

So think of someone like Mohammed Ali who has Mars in Taurus - it's not a good placement in terms of essential dignity but nevertheless he, in many ways, showed a very unorthodox approach to boxing, adding a venusian flair of 'float like a butterfly'. Of course since then, it's not uncommon and isn't necessarily considered unorthodox.

I think debilitated planets can be like that - they show something that is considered unorthodox within the culture they operate, but that can change with time, and if other things are right they might well be the one to break down that orthodoxy entirely. Of course 'success' is a different matter - it doesn't involve any one planet placement but rather transcends the entirety of the chart itself (in my opinion - I appreciate some traditional thinking would disagree with that statement).
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Stefan



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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes a debititated planet with debilitation "cancelled" due to some improvement by dispositor or angularity et.c. as told here in this thread, this debiltiated planet can be good to "fix problems" due to the planet showing some issues of bad shape, which can turn to good in time.

I have a client who have her natal Jupiter in sidereal Capricorn in her 6th house as 5th ruler ( sidereal). This woman is a successful child specialist doctor. Her Jupiter is used to "fix" problems in health and medical arena (6th) with children(5th) patients.

Donald Trump have his moon debilitated in his 4th house (real estate). It is somewhat cancelled due to angular house and aspected by dispositor mars et.c. He made a fortune by buying estates in bad shape and improving them.

(sidereal vedic approach)
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Paul that a debilitated planet can be seen as an outside-of-the-box energy. For example, in Lady Gaga's chart she also has Venus in detriment in fiery Aries in a day chart and under the beams (extra fire). She is well known for her unconventional style and her music, dance, etc. is unique and she embraces feminism and being a strong female. Her Venus is trine Uranus too though and Uranus loves to break traditions and have personal expression at the forefront. I would say though as far as using the energy for something good or bad is up to the native. You can have certain influences that help strengthen or further weaken a debilitated planet but in the end free will has to take some accountability.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the approach 'unorthodox' to describe the blend of energies.
And the angularity can make it more prominent.
I was looking at the chart of Lilly Singh (unknown birth time)
Mars Aries (Ruling) opposition Sun Libra (detriment)
A Canadian YouTuber, comedian, talk show host, and actress who gained fame on social media under the pseudonym IISuperwomanII. She is is the first person of Indian descent to host an American major broadcast network late-night talk show. And she wrote a book 'How to Be a Bawse: A Guide to Conquering Life'.
Of course, it doesn't come up with an easy staircase because she suffered depression when younger.
Is it Robert Hand who coined hard aspects as the aspects of 'success?

Ouranos
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ouranos

an interesting extension to the yoga you are referencing of cancelling out a planet in debility or the negative, it also plays into your comment of hard aspects and success which i believe was talked about before robert hands time...

essentially the yoga states that any time a debilitated planet has it's ruler in a kendra - 1,4, 7, or 10th sign from this planet, the negative traits of the planet get cancelled out... in all my reading, whole sign houses are used... using gagas chart, mercury in pisces is in the same sign as jupiter - 1st whs and ruler of the sign... in tanits focus on venus - mars, ruler of venus is in the 10th whs of venus and again it's debility is cancelled... i forget the name of this yoga, but in the books i have read on indian astrology, it gets used a lot... if you think of hard aspects as being defined as planets in the 1st, 4th, 7th or 10th house from the focal planet - this cancellation of a debilitated planet is also in a hard aspect to the said ruler of the planet... if i see what the yoga is called, i will come back and mention it.. cheers james
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you James,
Have found this yoga
Neech bhang yoga

When a planet is debilitated and the debilitation gets nullified due to some combination, it is called Neech Bhang yoga. Now there are certain conditions that should be met to form the yoga.

When the sign occupies both the exalted and debilitated planet, the negative effect neutralizes. For example, when Jupiter and Mars are together in Cancer, it cancels the debilitation of Mars since another planet is in its exalted position.
When the lord of the sign where a debilitated planet is positioned is itself placed in Kendra house (Angular) from Moon or Ascendant.
When the lord of the sign where a debilitated planet is positioned is exalted in Kendra house from Moon or Ascendant.
When the sign where a debilitated planet is placed is under the aspect of its lord.
When the debilitated planet is exalted in D-9 chart, i.e., Navamsha chart. (Refers to the 9th Harmonic)
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