Will we be together again? Maybe... Specific TOL question 1 by Wisdom Joy I candidly don't have an answer for this specific question as of yet and if you see the chart, it might help to explain why, both of signifiers are in cadent houses. The reason why I'm sharing this, is because I was going through some old charts and realized that this would qualify as a TOL, but there also is it's own very positive reception happening. I just wanted to add it for discussion more than anything else. Here is what I see: Q: Will we be together? A: Maybe L1 is Saturn & Venus L7 is Moon & Sun (+) - Saturn is strong in her house (+5) - Moon is strong by exaltation in the 3rd (+1, +4) - Principle signifiers have a beautiful trine happening between them - Moon is exalted and receives Saturn by face - Venus, though in detriment, is approaching Saturn conjunction, I saw this referenced in Dunn's book as a positive in one of the example charts - POF is sitting in the 7th - Sun conjunct Spica (-) - Saturn receives the moon by detriment, Bonatti says this isn't possible but I believe others don't necessarily agree - Both cadent, this shows me that, if it happens, it will likely take time - Saturn being in the 12th is (-5) Now the TOL: Moon is separating from an opposition from Venus and then making a trine to Saturn. But Venus is also just making a positive aspect to Saturn, even though it is in detriment. Maybe it's not necessarily looking at the individual aspect in this case? I welcome thoughts. I read that a translation of light with an opposition is possible, but that it happens after many almost breaking apart situations. This explains their relationship so well, slightly together, apart, slightly together, apart. So, I'm not looking for a specific answer to the chart but I am inquiring about the TOL: My question here is: would you consider the TOL, and is is relevant you think in this particular case? https://www.astrologyweekly.com/special ... -light.php Thank you! WJ Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:06 am
2 by AmeliaS Saturn rejoices in House 12. It is not as damaged as other planets when they're placed in the 12th. Likewise Moon rejoices in House 3 and hence less harmed by the cadency (see Bonatti's 146 considerations). The translation fits the technical definition but whatever this means must fit the context; sometimes it doesn't mean anything very significant. Miss Deb Houlding thinks that Sun and Venus as co-sigs only provide general, secondary significance and must be understood within their own context. See her comments here: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5023 Amelia Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:39 am
3 by Wisdom Joy I found them here, in case anyone else is interested: https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/bo ... tions.html I will definitely be reading them. Thanks for the article on Sun and Venus. Here they simply have no aspect. The sun isn't aspecting anything in the chart either. They are islands onto their own so I would put that in the negative section. I'm not entirely sure what that means but I can do some research on it tomorrow to try and make sense of it. Venus is in detriment and you're right, it also term (Egyptian). Thank you! WJ Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:27 am
4 by Tanit3333 Thanks for the article on Sun and Venus. Here they simply have no aspect. The sun isn't aspecting anything in the chart either. They are islands onto their own so I would put that in the negative section. The cycle is what is key, as well as the strength of the Sun and Venus. Here Venus is occidental (being chased by Sun) and the Sun approaches from a sign of Venus while itself is poorly dignified. Both are badly dignified. The negative I would say is that both have poor essential dignity, showing they are damaged and dysfunctional. If the querent is the female, I think the primary sigs are showing something similar, were the male has more invested. Even if Saturn rejoices in the 12th it is because it likes the energy of that house. The 12th is still not a great house in a horary chart. I would warn the querent about negative thinking patterns, being their own worst enemy, etc. If we are going to quote Bonatti, I would say to note that he says trines do not require reception for perfection. However, I would say the querent is likely to hinder efforts made by the quesited for something to happen. Both are cadent, so efforts are less likely to be direct. Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:34 am
5 by AmeliaS WJ, Saturn does not "receive Moon by detriment". It's the other way round - Moon can't work with Saturn because Saturn comes from a place of her detriment. Bonatti, Liber Astronomiae Book 4 trans Robert Hand, pp14-16: When Reception Is Not Effective Also one must know that although I have said that matters will be perfected by trine and sextile aspects, nevertheless it is necessary to understand [this] rationally; because if the place from which the lord of the Ascendant, or the Moon, is aspected by the lord of the matter sought for, (to wit, the planet by which the matter is signified or the place from which the lord or the significator of the matter is aspected by the lord of the Ascendant or by the Moon) is a debility of the aspecting planet, the matter is not perfected even if the aspect is a sextile or trine… [Here Bonatti inserted an example where Sun connects to a Saturn, with Saturn in Aries, noted Amelia] Saturn does not perfect the matter, to the contrary it impedes it so that the matter is not perfected; not only does it impede, it even strives to destroy the matter if it can. And if it were joined to the significator [of the querent] from Cancer or from Leo, it would do the same… You should also understand it [to be] the same if a significator, or the Moon, is joined by a planet which is in the major debility of that significator, or the Moon… [If the Moon was] joined by a planet which is in Scorpio or Capricorn… it always brings the matter forth to destruction and annuls it. So yes trines do not require reception, but Bonatti thinks that, that is given that the planet which Moon/L1 is joined to is not in Moon/L1's respective detriment or fall (or, when it is, there is strong reception to make up for it). So maybe what Tanit observed above goes both ways, if we tried to put that into context? Both parties frustrating the other's effort? I have not enough experience to translate this placement into real-life scenarios... ...But I have been this Capricorn Saturn before, in a romance chart where Moon applied from Taurus, exactly like yours. I was angular, the Moon was in a good house. I'm sorry to tell you that trine didn't seem to work and I and the quesited haven't reconciled. He went on to marry another. It's been 2/3 years, and we haven't even gone back on speaking terms yet! And I never understood why the chart wasn't positive until I read Bonatti, pages I quoted above. I do hope things work out for you, though! As you said, not everyone agrees with Bonatti. Last edited by AmeliaS on Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total. Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:39 pm
6 by Wisdom Joy Appreciate both your feedback and a couple things resonate for me. Firstly, thanks for the correction on how I described the detriment. Wow, Amelia, I'm shocked that you also had a chart with such similar placements, if you both want some additional information on how things are playing out in real life happy to share: L1 Saturn (is the female) L2 Moon (is the man) I'll use this as a baseline: If the querent is the female, I think the primary sigs are showing something similar, were the male has more invested. Even if Saturn rejoices in the 12th it is because it likes the energy of that house. The 12th is still not a great house in a horary chart. I would warn the querent about negative thinking patterns, being their own worst enemy, etc. If we are going to quote Bonatti, I would say to note that he says trines do not require reception for perfection. However, I would say the querent is likely to hinder efforts made by the quesited for something to happen. Both are cadent, so efforts are less likely to be direct. So interestingly enough, in real life the L1 "seems" much more invested, ready to commit, ready to make it happen. L7 is not. L7, though, is keeping the "emotional energy" going in a way. L7 has a very interesting dynamic of what I would say is "ghost stalking" or, as my friends describe this behaviour as "orbiting", making sure to be kept in the loop and making sure to do so discreetly or not discreetly. Additionally, there are very "thread lightly" conversations but no depth. L1 doesn't do the same thing, partly because she doesn't have the same access (she might if she were able to) and the other being the situation on a whole is sometimes exhausting. So basically, the connection is a bit wonky, neither is in a position to let go, they come together, L1 gets frustrated and pushes and L7 backs down. They go into hibernation and then something causes one to reach out to the each other and obviously its just both of them waiting for an opportunity lol they both are muddling around... muddling around. Neither has found anyone new, which.. is interesting. I also agree with the negative thinking patterns in L1, that's super super spot on and accurate. Also, I found this from Deb weird since it's surprisingly positive. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/perfection.html Thank you! WJ Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:15 pm
7 by Tanit3333 If we assume the chart is radical, L1 is not being shown as someone who is giving the most in the relationship to move forward. I am sorry, but either the querent is not being honest with themselves or you or the chart is not radical. I would view a cadent Saturn as the least likely significator to be expressing positive energy to move forward with a relationship. I have studied Moon-Saturn relationships a lot because I have an L1/L7 Moon-Saturn in my own chart, and while Saturn does represent structure and building long lasting relationships, it also takes a lot of energy from the Moon and the Moon person often feels judged, unloved, pushed away, ignored/invalidated by Saturn while Saturn feeds off of the life-affirming energy of the Moon and can become obsessed with them and need their energy to get out of bed. It could be that maybe both parties go back and forth on that but in general the Saturn person is the party who makes the relationship more difficult. The Moon is the swifter body and therefore is more impacted by Saturn than vice versa. Saturn is the most superior while Moon is most inferior so we would not describe Saturn as the one to pursue, again, assuming the chart is radical. It would be odd for Venus to also be suggesting this and it to not be the case, unless the chart is inaccurate. Maybe the question has been repeated? The chart suggests difficulties and that is what is being shown between them. Whether they will be together or not seems like a moot point until they address the distances between them and work on THAT. Last edited by Tanit3333 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total. Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:23 pm
8 by Wisdom Joy Tanit3333 wrote:If we assume the chart is radical, L1 is not being shown as someone who is giving the most in the relationship to move forward. I am sorry, but either the querent is not being honest with themselves or you or the chart is not radical. I would view a cadent Saturn as the least likely significator to be expressing positive energy to move forward with a relationship. I have studied Moon-Saturn relationships a lot because I have an L1/L7 Moon-Saturn in my own chart, and while Saturn does represent structure and building long lasting relationships, it also takes a lot of energy from the Moon and the Moon person often feels judged, unloved, pushed away, ignored/invalidated by Saturn while Saturn feeds off of the life-affirming energy of the Moon and can become obsessed with them and need their energy to get out of bed. It could be that maybe both parties go back and forth on that but in general the Saturn person is the party who makes the relationship more difficult. The Moon is the swifter body and therefore is more impacted by Saturn than vice versa. Saturn is the most superior while Moon is most inferior so we would not describe Saturn as the one to pursue, again, assuming the chart is radical. It would be odd for Venus to also be suggesting this and it to not be the case, unless the chart is inaccurate. Maybe the question has been repeated? The chart suggests difficulties and that is what is being shown between them. Whether they will be together or not seems like a moot point until they address the distances between them and work on THAT. This is absolutely accurate in how things are between them. Saturn isn't doing anything because her pride will not allow her to be vulnerable again. BUT she is very very emotionally invested. L1 is basically manifesting L7 from a afar. The question has never ever been repeated, this is the very first question around this chart. That I know for sure and can guarantee. I don't remember the date and time candidly, but I can find that as well. But I'm confused because in my response I was saying that L7 was the one who was orbiting and ghost following and messaging and Saturn was just around, wishing mostly. Also, this paragraph below is exactly what happened and what always ends up happening but in every case, the moon pulls away and then comes back, or Saturn reached out because it was an emergency and then moon uses it as leverage. "I have an L1/L7 Moon-Saturn in my own chart, and while Saturn does represent structure and building long lasting relationships, it also takes a lot of energy from the Moon and the Moon person often feels judged, unloved, pushed away, ignored/invalidated by Saturn while Saturn feeds off of the life-affirming energy of the Moon and can become obsessed with them and need their energy to get out of bed." That said, I just wanted to know if the TOL mattered more than anything. Appreciate all this new and fresh insight though. I will continue to update as I always do. Thank you! WJ Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:34 pm
9 by Tanit3333 They sound like they have hard Moon-Saturn in synastry or compositie and my best advice to people who have this is that they need to quit avoiding the problem and bring it out into the open and talk about it. Although Moon-Saturn is probably the most painful connection in romance, it can also lead to fulfilling and long lasting relationships but it requires a lot of work by both parties. If both parties are not willing to work at it then it isn't going to workout. And, I would argue, if the strains between them are ignored or pushed under the rug, this can potentially be the most painful person to be in a relationship with and lead to great unhappiness, often to both people. So the two parties have choices to make. I once had a woman ask me if she would marry her abusive boyfriend and she ignored his continued abuse and only cared about marrying him. He did ask her to marry him but does perfection of the matter help to know in such cases or does knowing the continued abuse will continue unless it is addressed? I don't really understand questions that avoid the bigger picture issues. Here you have two parties who have terrible communications with one another and manipulative behavior yet the querent is asking about whether they will get together? I just don't understand this approach. Whether the chart is "positive" or not, problems do not just go away on their own. Last edited by Tanit3333 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total. Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:43 pm
10 by Wisdom Joy Tanit3333 wrote:They sound like they have hard Moon-Saturn in synastry or compositive and my best advice to people who have this is that they need to quit avoiding the problem and bring it out into the open and talk about it. Although Moon-Saturn is probably the most painful connection in romance, it can also lead to fulfilling and long lasting relationships but it requires a lot of work by both parties. If both parties are not willing to work at it then it isn't going to workout. I once had a woman ask me if she would marry her abusive boyfriend and she ignored his continued abuse and only cared about marrying him. He did ask her to marry him but does perfection of the matter help to know in such cases or does knowing the continued abuse will continue unless it is addressed? I don't really understand questions that avoid the bigger picture issues. Here you have two parties who have terrible communications with one another and manipulative behavior yet the querent is asking about whether they will get together? I just don't understand this approach. Whether the chart is "positive" or not, problems do not just go away on their own. Tanit, let me find out the synastry and then also look into the composite and let you know what I find in both. I can probably post the composite here as well. I'm curious about this sun/ Saturn aspect. The moon isn't ready to work on anything, L7 is the one who runs and becomes scared, etc, etc but always tries to come back. I know L1 would also pull away through if L7 came running at full force. That said this also represents the cadent houses. Even if they come together, it will only be over the passing of time. Because that's easy and it's my speciality actually: you can have terrible communication and manipulative behaviour and still very much feel at a soul level that you want to be with someone. You can hope and wish for better and know the time is not right, either because you're not in a position or the other person isn't. There's no harm in wanting to know a brighter day is coming. As humans, we want to know there is a way out of the storm WITH the people you care about, not without them. Which is why astrologyweekly remains consumed with hard relationship questions, time and time again. Thank you! WJ Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:56 pm
11 by Tanit3333 I had a very long horary discussion with a Moon-Saturn chart before in another forum where the querent assumed the other party put in no effort and did not care, etc. and did not believe me. The problem was not resolved until a mutual friend had them in the same room and told them how ridiculous they both were being and that they were both madly in love with one another. It could appear to the Saturn person that the Moon does not care, etc. but they may also be mistaken. The Moon puts up a shell of protection around them against the Saturn person as a defense mechanism. Again, I am just speaking generally from over a decade of experience with my own chart and the charts of others. Horary is always the same though regarding this energy and it is often in the natal charts/connections. Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:01 pm
12 by Tanit3333 The moon isn't ready to work on anything, L7 is the one who runs and becomes scared, etc, etc but always tries to come back. I know L1 would also pull away through if L7 came running at full force. That said this also represents the cadent houses. Even if they come together, it will only be over the passing of time. Then this should answer your question. If the quesited is not willing to move forward then it would be in the querent's best interest to move on. This Moon-Saturn type of connection is extremely bad for someone's mental health if it is not expressed in positive ways. It would be for the best for this person to move on if she feels the other party is unable to commit but I would caution that she may not be in the best frame of mind to judge that about this person without sitting down and having a long and serious discussion with the other party so that both can clear the air on their grievances and maturely and openly talk about what the other person is not providing for the other party. Moon-Saturn often represents this most of all - not receiving a basic need and longing for it to be met by the other party, yet not being able to express this need to the other person. Quote Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:07 pm