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Does anyone use Solar Arc Progressions?
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Knightinte



Joined: 22 Nov 2017
Posts: 86

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as I was looking at the solar arcs in my son's chart I thought of the retrograde planets. The automatic solar arc movement in SF does not account for any retrograde motion of the planets within the solar arcs. Should we do so manually, or only stick with forward motion?

F.ex. in his chart Saturn is Rx at the time of birth and moves retro for almost two months after his birth ... or about 2°. Venus is also retro at his birth and moves about 8° backwards after his birth before going forward again. I myself also have three planets Rx at birth and wonder if I should count for that in solar arcs.
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fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The man to ask would be Alois Treindl. Astrodienst is usually extremely well thought out, the best calculating software I have seen. I have never known it be wrong.

As far as I can tell, Astrodienst just calculates Solar Arcs forward, not taking the natal retrograde into account.

Very good question.
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Stefan



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Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes..

Since Solar arc's is directed by the same rate as the sun's longitude for one
day.From about 0'58 to 1'01/day depending on which time of the year one is born. Summer birth's have a slower arc than winter births where the arc is more fast.
There is only forward direction of the arc's as the sun
does not Retrograde.

Secondary progressions do move both forward and backwards depending on the actual movement of the planet for the date in question.

Solar arc is I guess a little more event oriented symbolically.
While secondaries can to a more extent reflecting inner developments
in a more psychological way perhaps. It is said that secondary progressed aspects and developments do "integrate" the symbolic meaning in oneself.

Can be open to be discussed of course, as the difference is hard to measure.

Very Happy
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fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Yes..

Since Solar arc's is directed by the same rate as the sun's longitude for one
day.From about 0'58 to 1'01/day depending on which time of the year one is born. Summer birth's have a slower arc than winter births where the arc is more fast.
There is only forward direction of the arc's as the sun
does not Retrograde.




Very Happy


That sounds right, thanks.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fleur,

stefan is mostly correct.. however, solar arc directions, just like seconrdary progressions and transits can be done in reverse direction - or converse... basically it is going backwards in time and is a technique that has been used for some time, at least since i read ronald c davisons book 'the technique of prediction' which was written in 1949 as memory serves...

lets take secondary progressions... the symbolic concept was 1 day = 1 year of life.. so if you are born january 1st - 5 days later - jan 6th - would reflect the 5th year of your life in the secondary progressions as seen as the transits of jan 6th... converse secondary progressions would be seen in 5 days before your birth - dec 26th or thereabouts... hopefully you get the idea...

the big difference between secondary progressions and solar arc directions is with sec progs - the whole chart moves based on the transits of the day in question that are being progressed to reflect whatever year of a persons life... (same deal with converses sec progs, only it goes backwards in the calendar, instead of forward)... with solar arc directions - the whole chart is directed at the rate of the solar arc of the individual chart.. every planet moves approx 1 degree ( whatever the solar arc is for the day of the persons birth) forward by the same amount... - retrograde planets all move forward this same distance or solar arc, regardless whether they are going retrograde at the time of birth or not.... converse solar arc directions does the same thing in reverse...

believe it or not - converse transits are also an option... these are concepts that not many astrologers pursue or appreciate - isaac starkman being one exception and who posts here at skyscript - but they are an approach that has been used for some time...

hopefully some of this helps!
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
fleur,

stefan is mostly correct.. however, solar arc directions, just like seconrdary progressions and transits can be done in reverse direction - or converse... basically it is going backwards in time and is a technique that has been used for some time, at least since i read ronald c davisons book 'the technique of prediction' which was written in 1949 as memory serves...

lets take secondary progressions... the symbolic concept was 1 day = 1 year of life.. so if you are born january 1st - 5 days later - jan 6th - would reflect the 5th year of your life in the secondary progressions as seen as the transits of jan 6th... converse secondary progressions would be seen in 5 days before your birth - dec 26th or thereabouts... hopefully you get the idea...


I have heard of converse directions before, but never looked into the topic any further. I take it that they are supposed to relate to the unfolding of events in forward moving time, though? If that is the case, I am not suggesting that such could not work (actually, pretty much anything that people do with a chart seems to be meaningful on some level), however, I wonder what could be the rationale underlying that kind of approach?

Quote:
the big difference between secondary progressions and solar arc directions is with sec progs - the whole chart moves based on the transits of the day in question that are being progressed to reflect whatever year of a persons life... (same deal with converses sec progs, only it goes backwards in the calendar, instead of forward)... with solar arc directions - the whole chart is directed at the rate of the solar arc of the individual chart.. every planet moves approx 1 degree ( whatever the solar arc is for the day of the persons birth) forward by the same amount... - retrograde planets all move forward this same distance or solar arc, regardless whether they are going retrograde at the time of birth or not.... converse solar arc directions does the same thing in reverse...

believe it or not - converse transits are also an option... these are concepts that not many astrologers pursue or appreciate - isaac starkman being one exception and who posts here at skyscript - but they are an approach that has been used for some time...


Shocked Care to elaborate on the computation and interpretation of converse transits as well?
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi michael,

sure, i can give an example.... lets use trumps chart and kamala harris's chart for the inauguration date just pasted... i am not using bidens chart because i lack confidence in the accuracy of his chart... i wish i had of taken this position prior to the election... i knew the time was off, but i still rolled the dice trying to get a perspective... next time i will only rely on accurate birth times.. i think trump and harris have fairly accurate birth times...

i haven't looked at these before doing this.. the stand out converse transits as i see them are t neptune exact square trumps natal saturn, while the venus-saturn square via converse transit data is essentially on trumps natal neptune... all in all, these are not positive transits.. now, i will do the same for kamala harris's chart and we can see what we see!



below is kamala harris converse transit data on outside wheel... one immediately sees converse pluto on the ascendant - converse transit angles at her venus-pluto conjunction, saturn in the 10th, moon in a type of lunar return in her natal 11th, converse transit of jupiter quite close to her mars and etc. etc... i think the transits definitely look different for the 2 people, prior to us knowing who the winner was! hopefully my example here broadens your astro horizon!

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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, James, but I still don't get how this works...

E.g., why is T Pluto in Aries relative to Trump's chart and in Gemini relative to Harris' chart?
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael,

you need a starting point to do converse transits.. it has to be to a chart already in place... with transits the way everyone thinks of them - no starting point is needed.. they are happening as we speak and no one thinks about anything other then the moment in time one wants to consider the transits... you can look at transits for right now or transits for tomorrow and you do not need a chart as a reference point for any of it...

with converse transits you need a reference point - or what i am calling a chart as a starting point... so, with trumps chart using converse transits - essentially the data is for the number and days or years in reverse instead of forward in time as you always think of transit data.... ordinarily you would just think of the transits as applying to trumps chart at present and leave it at that.. or, you could project out into the future or you could examine some event from the past and use transits to any of it but with converse transits you do all this in reverse - same time distance from birth chart but in reverse..

let me try to help more... lets say transits for trump 20 years after he was born.. you would find his year of birth - 1946, and look at the transits for 1966... with converse transits - it does it all in reverse... converse transits for 20 years would mean you would be looking at the transit data to 1926, as opposed to 1966...

is it becoming clearer??? the converse transit data for trumps chart at present is however old he is at present you subtract from the birth date, instead of adding to it - which is what ordinary transit data is! hopefully you get the idea!

to be very specific to the question at the bottom -why is T Pluto in Aries relative to Trump's chart and in Gemini relative to Harris' chart?

because if you go backwards in time, the same distance we have gone forward in time - trumps converse transits for jan 20 2021 will be the amount of time from his birthdate to jan 20 2021 - subtracted from his birthdate, as opposed to being added to his birthdate - which is again - what ordinary transit data is... same deal with kamala harris chart - the transit data is to a point in the past before she was born the same distance in terms of time as to this point in her life.. she was born in 1964 - she is 56 years old at present.. she will be 57 on her birthdate in october... go back to 1908 - 56 years prior to her birthdate, or whatever the exact time ratio is from her birth to jan 20 2021 - and you will see in the ephemeris how transiting pluto is in gemini - somewhere in the vicinity of 1908.....

hopefully i don't have to use more words to get this concept conveyed! i would be a terrible teacher, lol...
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fleur



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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, you conveyed this concept very well in words. I had never come across it before and now I will be thinking about it.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, James, I got it now. You are a great teacher, actually!

Still, I wonder what the rationale for such an approach could be - as well as for converse directions, for that matter. Confused
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fleur



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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Converse_Transit
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael and fleur... thanks! i appreciate the kind words..

michael - i think it has to do with our understanding of time.. we mostly think of it a particular way and we might be not really have a good understanding of time and how it works... i can only surmise on this as time is a mystery as i see it.. why do some people have premonitions or dreams that come true?? or why is it that some people have a memory of past lives?? just what is the past and the future exactly?? i know the easy answers, but maybe the easy answers are not the only answers?? maybe there are other things going on that we don't really understand, with regard to time?? so it is in this context that i think a person might want to consider converse transits... do they have some symbolic value in determining why something is happening in this moment in time??? i personally think they do...

fleur - thanks for the page from astro.com... personally i think the conclusion they come to on converse transits is too narrow a viewpoint.. ((Converse transits are meant to show pre-natal conditioning and reveal how our (karmic) past continues to influence the present time.)) while it might have some relevance, i think it is putting emphasis on a type of logic involving our concepts of time... i think if anyone is interested in converse transits they would be better off examining charts with this in mind... i have done this enough to know they have merit, although i haven't been looking at converse transit data for a number of years.... with this in mind, using an 830am chart for biden, i was curious to see what his transits were for both the inauguration date and the nov 3rd election date to bidens chart...

the chart below is converse transits on the outer wheel for nov 3rd 2020..
we see jupiter and sun in the first house rising - and remember, as the date moves from nov 3rd to jan 20- 2021 - converse transit of jupiter will be moving towards his natal ascendant and the venus-sun-mercury-mars positions the whole time.. on the other hand we see in the 7th house the nature of his opponent - trump, as represented by the converse transit of mars to his natal saturn position... this seems to be born out by the view on trump not conceding the election until sometime closer to somewhere in january... i think converse transits definitely have a lot of merit and symbolic value, but most astrologers do not use them...

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