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martin ganstens book - annual predictive techniques
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:51 pm    Post subject: martin ganstens book - annual predictive techniques Reply with quote



not sure how this looks, until i post it...

this is example I in martin ganstens book taken off page 72 with the information given in the appendix 4 at the back of the book... i have followed what i believe to be the primary direction options shown in appendix 3 and am using the ptolemy key for these directions as well... for the age of 18 i am getting ascendant 28 sag 47 for his 18th birthday.... these details are found on the outside circle of this layered chart...

martin, i am curious if i have these details correct... i am responding to the information on page 72-73 of your book and would like to stop and get a response from you before i go further... thanks...
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: martin ganstens book - annual predictive techniques Reply with quote

Yes, that looks about right, though I personally prefer just to use a speculum to track directions.

As primary directions never really made it to India, this question would perhaps be more suited for the Traditional forum. If the thread develops, I could try moving it there.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
As primary directions never really made it to India, this question would perhaps be more suited for the Traditional forum. If the thread develops, I could try moving it there.

I was thinking the same thing, and wondered why James put his post on the Indian forum. I also wonder whether Indian astrologers purposely rejected primary directions. Dasa systems seem to be a substitute.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't seen anything to suggest that directions were deliberately rejected. As mentioned in my book, they almost made it into the Tājika school, but were misunderstood and disappeared again.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi martin,

thanks... feel free to move it where ever you'd like... i am interested in understanding your process.. in the first example, it is as you note in the book specifically an example only using primary directions and it seems to have a strong emphasis on the egyptian terms.. also you make a distinction between zodiac and mundane primary directions saying you only consider mundane pds if it involves an opposition or conjunction... i am a bit mystified of the use of the language - latitude, or no latitude... this is applicable only to the mundane primary directions - correct?? in morinus they don't list whether anything does or doesn't have latitude, but you mention it a number of times.. i can only guess this is a feature of mundane aspects, but i have to ask you here directly... thanks..

on a different note, i have been listening to your interview with chris brennan - Tajika: Medieval Arabic Astrology in Sanskrit
https://theastrologypodcast.com/2020/08/23/tajika-medieval-arabic-astrology-in-sanskrit/

at about 50 minutes in you mention much of the approach of tajika was centered in the northwest corner in the area of gujarat.... i was fortunate to visit this area and stayed in a place called bhuj in 1998 before the time of the earthquake in 2000... so much of the fascinating art work - textiles and etc - all hand made in this area, are seen in more touristy places in rajastan.... i liked what you said about it being hard for modern astrologers having a hard time unlearning what they have learned over the course of their time in astrology... i think this is very true..

one final question which i have to ask - feel free to take a pass on my questions as well... who do you think is a present day author on tajika in india who is doing good work that you would recommend? i have mentioned dr. charak a number of times here at skyscript.. are you familiar with his work and if so, what do you think of it?? thanks james

oh and here is a list of the primary directions i get for the chart in my first post age 0-25... does this look similar to what you generate?? is this the speculum you refer to? thanks..

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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

martin,

thanks.. perhaps you can delete this comment along with thereses and yours where the location of where this thread ought to be has now been resolved and we can stay focused on the topic at hand.. thanks..
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems I successfully moved the thread to what I think is a more appropriate forum for questions on primary directions. Smile

The matter of latitude is treated on pp. 68-70 of the book. To summarize this very briefly, no, zodiacal aspects with latitude are not the same as mundane aspects (the latter invented by Placidus), except for conjunctions and oppositions, which do coincide. So a mundane trine, a zodiacal trine with latitude, and a zodiacal trine without latitude are all different; but a mundane opposition and a zodiacal opposition with latitude are identical in practice.

I don't use mundane aspects at all, and I only consider latitude when dealing with conjunctions and oppositions, which can be described as two planets occupying the same horizon (and thus as a species of paranatellonta, broadly aspeaking).

The primary directions setup in Morinus includes latitude options for zodiacal aspects. And yes, that is the speculum I referred to, and yes, it looks right to me (though missing the terms).

I'll reply to your Tājika question separately in the Indian forum.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks martin..i can't seem to find any option on morinus for the latitude question... is this within the primary direction options?? i am not finding it.. i have version 6.2 of morinus..
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks martin..i can't seem to find any option on morinus for the latitude question... is this within the primary direction options?? i am not finding it.. i have version 6.2 of morinus..

I'm using the Traditional version (5.9). You can see the relevant settings on p. 207 of my book.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks martin... i did see the page in the page of the book on settings, but no mention of latitude... you use the term latitutde, with latitude and etc, a fair amount in the book... i see it is part of the primary direction option on the use of the prommisor.... thanks..
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

martin,

why are primary directions involving mercury and midheaven not included in your overview for example J in the 20 years of age time period? this doesn't show in direct, or converse PDs.. chart below is direct PDs.. i suspect it has to do with the setting options you have made, but i do believe this particular direction of midheaven to mercury, or mercury to midheaven is quite relevant given exmple J's honours and awards gotten at an early age... below is a picture of a chart comparison for the year late 2000.

ultimately i am trying to appreciate why you are choosing the primary directions you are choosing and noticing how some data that i personally would consider very relevant, is missing... thanks james

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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's encouraging to see you really engaging wth the book, James. I hope other readers do the same. The direction you ask about is a converse one (in the traditional sense of that term), where the point natally on the MC (the significator) is moved with the primary motion until it meets Mercury (the promissor) rather than vice versa. Converse directions can be important, but have traditionally been considered less powerful than direct ones. More importantly from a practical point of view, they add a layer of complexity which I wanted to avoid at this stage. But well spotted!
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P 78
Quote:
...although the direction of ascendant to the (natal) trine of mercury had already perfected the year before...

Here, the ascendant is obviously the signifactor but which way is it moving to the trine of mercury ? or is it the zodiacal point of 10 deg aquarius ( the trine point of mercury)moving to conjunct the ascendant .
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
Here, the ascendant is obviously the signifactor but which way is it moving to the trine of mercury ? or is it the zodiacal point of 10 deg aquarius ( the trine point of mercury)moving to conjunct the ascendant .

Yes, from the perspective of observational astronomy it is the aspect point that is moving towards the horizon. These matters are discussed on pp. 32-37 and 68-70. (From p. 33: So the significator’s symbolic motion through the zodiac is actually accomplished by the zodiac being moved across the natal significator, which is kept fixed.) If you think this is a counterintuitive way of describing things, it may comfort you to know that al-Bīrūnī thought the same, about a millennium ago. Smile Nevertheless, I have stuck to the traditional style in order to provide a bridge into earlier textual sources for the reader.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

martin,

thanks! i think there are a few reasons many astrologers are not using primary directions, not the least if they had to do the calculations without the aid of an astro software program, it would appear to be difficult to do.. but alas, i am still interested in understanding them and how they might offer some insight which is why i read your book with keen interest...

the chart i posted if off the data of primary directions, not converse directions... so, perhaps for convenience sake i would like to ask, can we use the terms clockwise, verses counter clockwise in any of this?? below is a picture of the comparison using converse PDs...



the chart above is for late 2000, or when example J is about 19 years old.. one can see here how the angles have moved in a clockwise manner with the midheaven reaching the place of mercury as positioned on the inside wheel of the natal chart.. it is essentially the opposite of the one that i posted yesterday..

so is the 'primary direction' in the chart i posted of the angles and planets moving counterclockwise, or is it like in the above chart where the angles and planets are moving clockwise??

i have been paying attention to your comments in the book and the one you express here is mentioned in the book too - "Converse directions can be important, but have traditionally been considered less powerful than direct ones. " you make a number of comments that i am intrigued by... obviously i appreciate your sharing your own experience and trying to convey your understanding of both the astrologers from the past and your own work in trying to fathom it... i would really like to understand it all better, so yes - my enquiries are meant in a good spirit! thanks..
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