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Morinus/Swiss Ephemeris
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject: Morinus/Swiss Ephemeris Reply with quote

I never bothered copying the Swiss Ephemeris files into my Morinus directory before, as the built-in ephemeris seemed to work fine for modern dates. At the moment, however, I am trying to recreate a 15th-century chart, and the ascendant is several degrees off, so I downloaded the SE files from the Morinus site. Unfortunately, it still doesn't work, perhaps because those are 32-bit versions and I am running 64-bit Windows 10. If anyone knows where to get the 64-bit SE files, or has some other solution to suggest, I'd be very grateful.
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jventura



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin, I think the swiss ephemeris files are just data files and so, it doesn't matter if it's 32 or 64 bits..

If you want, you can share the chart data here, what angle values you expect from it (Asc, MC, Moon), and maybe I (or somebody else) can check if it's working on our swe copies..

Regards,
João Ventura
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, João. I don't know how this works at all; I just read this text at https://sites.google.com/site/pymorinus/:

Quote:
Windows
This is the simple way, just download MorinusWinEng.zip(see attachments at the bottom of the page) and extract it. You can start the program by clicking on morinus.exe. However, this way the program will use the built-in Moshier-ephemeris(3000BC-3000AD) which calculates the same positions for e.g. 1973. You can remedy this if you download the zipped ephemeris files (Ephem1.zip, Ephem2.zip, Ephem3.zip, Ephem4.zip at the bottom of the page), extract it and copy the files into the MorinusWinEng/SWEP/Ephem directory. Google Sites allows uploading files not greater than 12MB, this is why I had to split the Swiss Ephemeris into four files. Tested on WinXP(SP2, SP3) and Win7(32 bit and 64 bit). Important: This is the 32-bit version(sweastrology.pyd)!
There is no need to install python because it is already included in the Windows-binary.

In any case, I am trying to recreate the nativity of Nicolaus Copernicus with the following data: 19 February, 1473 OS/Julian, at 16:48 LAT, 18E35, 55N00. (The latitude of Torun is properly 53N02, but the Renaissance astrologers I have seen, such as Giuntini and Gartze, apparently used 55N00.) Solar Fire gives a tropical Asc around 5 Virgo, which agrees more or less with Giuntini, but Morinus gives 1 Virgo, which is definitely too early.

Incidentally, if anyone is aware of other early sources for the nativity of Copernicus, I'd be glad to hear of them. I'll post a separate question about that on the Traditional forum.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi martin,

i am guessing you have already seen this, but if not - astrodatabank has a chart and uses a different time.. and it is in tropical, not sidereal.. i am assuming your chart for early virgo is sidereal..

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Copernicus,_Nicolaus
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I'm trying to recreate the tropical nativity as given by 16th-century authors, but there are internal inconsistencies. The generally accepted time seems to have been 4h 48m p.m. LAT, though some have 38m, which may be a misprint or an attempt at rectification. But a few charts printed with this time actually give 25 Virgo rising, which agrees with a time two hours later. Giuntini does give 4 Virgo for the time 4h 38m, which is more or less correct, but then confuses things by giving the positions for 4 out of 6 planets for the wrong year (!).

In any case, the main thing I would need right now is, if possible, to get Morinus to calculate the house cusps (and the directions of the angles) correctly.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 511

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin,
Have you tried to reach Jean Cremers from Planetdance and see if he can assist with something more consistant with Primary Directions.
Right now, I use Planetdance with the option 'Other' and enter the option of the Time Zone manually, allowing me to Progress the chart over time by skipping the Time Changes, but I would like to see an option with the RA and I haven't come up with something consistant for the intermediate House cusps.
This said, I crosscheck with Morinus and Solar Fire but it would require a deeper investigation.
In any case, let me know if you come up with something reliable.

Cheers!
Ouranos
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astralwanderer



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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:35 am    Post subject: Planetdance Reply with quote

Hi there - I have calculated the chart with the data provided, and altered the latitude to 55 N, using Planetdance.

This gives an ascendant of 3 VI 28.



Ed
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: Planetdance Reply with quote

Thanks, Ed and Ouranos. The time given for the Planetdance positions is slightly off (using LMT rather than the correct LAT), and if I adjust Morinus accordingly, I get the exact same ascendant, whereas Solar Fire gives one 44' earlier. I have no idea why.

It occurs to me that I don't actually know what longitude the early modern astrologers I've looked at used for Torun, as they only state the 'pole' (latitude). Perhaps I'll just have to keep fiddling with it until I get as close a match as possible for the cusps they give, and use that.
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astralwanderer



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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:06 pm    Post subject: Planetdance Reply with quote

Thanks Martin - it's good to know that Jean's software is pretty accurate with this historical data. I'm currently re-working the Planetdance primary directions module which will be much improved. I hope to release this in the next couple of weeks. I've based a lot of the code on the information in your first book, although I appreciate that you have revised your views somewhat in your more recent volume.

All the best. Ed
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robhywolf



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

Morinus has no problem calculating correctly the charts and the PDs for births that occurred many centuries ago, but it is necessary to know some important details on the evolution of the measurement of time. Admitted to have reliable birth data, they must always be correctly understood.

First of all the calendars, that is the day of birth: Giuliano until October 4, 1582, then Gregorian. But it is always necessary to verify in which country the birth took place, since the latter was adopted by the various countries in later times. For Copernicus the problem does not arise: the calendar is the Julian one.

Then there is the problem of the time. The dates of births before 1780 are always a bit problematic. And so that of Copernicus is one of them.

Roughly, up to that date the hours were measured with Local TRUE Time - LTT. That is, that of the sundials. It is only after that the Local MEAN Time - LMT enters the picture.
We have: LMT = LTT - E
where E is the equation of time. It varies from -14 to + 16min and resets four times in a year. You can find the details on the internet. (-13m 19s for February 19, 1473).

For Copernicus, to display the correct birth chart with Morinus, the time of birth must therefore be set as follows:

Copernicus-LMT = 16:48:00 - (-00:13: 19) = 16: 48: 00 + 00: 13: 19 = 16:61:19 = 17:01:19

In the "Personal Data" settings then remember to use:
-Julian
-Local Mean

Regards,
Roberto
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never encountered the term 'local true time' before. The local time shown e.g. by a sundial is usually called local apparent time, for which there is already a separate setting in Morinus. It doesn't match the time difference you give, though, Roberto, so I'm in the dark as to how you derived that.

As for the other parameters, yes, it should be 19 February OS = Julian calendar. An additional difficulty with dates falling between 1 January and 25 March is that regional calendars could use either date as the first day of the year, so that you are not always sure which year is meant. As far as I can tell, though, this should be 1473 starting on 1 January.
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robhywolf



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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin

Local Apparent Time -LAT- and Local True Time -LTT- conceptually coincide. But I'm not sure if the former is correctly rated in Morinus. Thorough verification would be required. However, Morinus calculates the LMT correctly.

Generally, for dates far back in time, before about 1780, it is assumed that the declared time of birth was evaluated with the sundial. Consequently, to get the LMT, it is necessary to make the change given by the equation of time.

On Wikipedia the theory:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

The Equation of Time calculators generally work with the Gregorian calendar, so it is necessary to do a conversion first:
19 February 1473 [Julian] → 28 February 1473 [Gregorian]
http://www.themeter.net/calendario-1_e.htm

Equation of time - E - for 28 February 1473 → E = - 11m 11s
(and not -13m 19s as I said in my previous post)
So the time of birth of Copernicus becomes:
16:48:00 - (- 00:11:11) = 16:48:00 + 00:11:11 = 16:59:11 (LMT)
https://frosinonemeteo.it/utility-di-astronomia/equazione-del-tempo.html
(Sorry for the Italian link)

Using the time of birth as Local Mean Time is quite useful because it allows a comparison with what Astro Databank shows. With the same settings, birth time and LMT, Morinus and Astro Databank coincide quite well, with a difference of just a few seconds of degree.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I know what equation of time is: it is precisely the difference between LAT and LMT. So you think the problem with Morinus is that it calculates LAT incorrectly? That's a possibility that didn't occur to me; thanks for the suggestion.
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robhywolf



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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if Morinus calculates the LAT correctly or not. I have never checked this setting carefully, also because it is always possible to use the LMT. However, by wasting a few time, it is possible to do the verification.
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robhywolf



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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin,

I checked in Morinus the calculation of the charts with the LAT. IT IS OK !!!
There is a difference of a few seconds.

Roberto
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