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Perfect aspect but separating seconds?
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Arya



Joined: 16 May 2017
Posts: 25

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:37 am    Post subject: Perfect aspect but separating seconds? Reply with quote

Hello,

I'm doing an horary chart for a job I would very much like to apply to, but I'm hesitating because it would be through a friend of mine who is the manager, and I'm afraid it would be awkward between us if he has to reject my application.

The chart looks rather positive I think, I am Jupiter at 25"06 in Aquarius in 2nd house, and the 10th lord is Venus at 25"19 in Aries in 4th. Maybe not the best dignities, but the sextile aspect is perfect, although separating if we look at the seconds. I read that separating aspects means the events already happened, but it's not the case here as I haven't even applied yet because I worry about putting my friend in an uncomfortable position (him feeling pressured to say yes because of our friendship).

So the event definitely didn't happen yet, the aspect is perfect, and the Moon is at 8 degree Aries applying to Venus, although not within orb and separated from Venus by a few planets and a different house. I also read on the forum that Lilly doesn't consider Mars in angles a good thing for the chart (it's being debated here http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11107).

So I am quite confused, I'm also wondering which house I should consider for my friend who is manager there, so I could see his feelings on the matter and if I should apply or not. It's the perfect job for me and I would love working with him, but I don't want to put him on the spot if it's not meant to happen.

Thank you so much for any help or thought you have on the matter!

The chart: https://imgur.com/a/DsFLKrt
The data: 11th April 2021, 01:29am, Rillieux, France

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KevinM



Joined: 28 Jun 2019
Posts: 7
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Arya

What follows is based on my understanding.

If one asked whether one would be hired for a position, one could interpret the occurrence of the relevant significators separating as describing a subject who, in the future, is hired, subject, of course, to the absence of certain contradictions to such an interpretation. The past occurrence of the conjunction of the relevant planets would denote the subject's acceptance, in the past, of the relevant position.

Though Venus separates from Jupiter in the chart that you provide, Venus is combust. Consequently, I would interpret the said chart as describing a matter that is not perfected. If the question were whether one would be hired if one applied, I would interpret the said chart as describing one who would not be hired.

In the aforesaid chart, the Moon applies to Mercury and not to Venus (Mercury and the Sun stand between the Moon and Venus).

Friends are assigned to the eleventh (mundane) house.

I hope that I have answered all of your questions and that my responses make sense.


Regards
Kevin J W Mellors
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Blog: www.diaryofafortuneteller.wordpress.com
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 248

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s general understanding that (1) a sextile is a weak aspect that needs strong reception to work (2) a planet that is both combust and in detriment rarely delivers.

The Moon's testimony, which makes or breaks matters, tends to get ignored these days for reasons I don’t comprehend. Sorry, but I don’t see this chart as being quite positive. Wishing you better opportunities ahead -

Amelia
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Wisdom Joy



Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Posts: 154

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also learned on another chart I saw at some point that when all the signifiers are at the bottom half of the chart, that isn't good. Amelia, or anyone else, have you heard this also?

Thanks all!
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WJ
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1141

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wisdom - regarding planets below the chart, that is something I mention a lot. Those are usually seen as more introverted houses whereas the action oriented houses are on top. This is a night chart and Mars is the only thing above the horizon and is angular, in sect and being heavily emphasized as the one having a lot of power in the outcome.

Since Mars lords the friend and Mars is often shown as a supervisor or manager type, my guess is that Mars represents the friend. Mars collects the light of Venus and Sun, and Sun already aspected Venus and next applies to Jupiter after Mars, with Jupiter receiving Sun, along with Mars also applying to Jupiter via trine (which does not require reception) . There is a lot going on there. Sun-Jupiter aspects are very auspicious in career questions and the Sun is very strong for advancement here. It also beholds and trines the ascendant and is a triplicity lord of the ascendant. The 2nd house is commonly emphasized in career questions. Venus the 10th lord being so debilitated suggests the job will have disappointing aspects about it but it is under the rulership of Mars and also the Sun is the exaltation lord of Venus too. Sun is being heavily emphasized here, which in my experience is very good in a career chart. PoF in the 1st is also positive. The Moon is again under a sign of Mars, showing Mars holds all cards. It applies to the dispositor of the querent, which lords the 2nd house (again, common in career matters to be emphasized). This could show the salary is conservative. Since Moon is in the 3rd this could be something that comes to light during a conversation or interview.

Mars as the friend also suggests they will likely not just give you a job but will make you work for it, although Jupiter trines help mitigate the fire nature of Mars. Mars in the 7th is not the best house for it but the 7th in career questions also shows the other parties involved in the hiring process (which is probably Mercury too). Some people interpret the 7th as the house of competition in career matters but I normally see it as the interview panel (the ones holding you under a microscope - as the 7th house often does). My main worry with Mars is that it also squares Neptune so I would not really trust this friend and in working with them you might find negative aspects come to light about their character. They at least have some term dignity and are in sect. Sect helps dampen the fire nature of Mars because night is more wet and cool.

Overall, I would say this looks like a potential yes with effort, but that the job may have some downsides, such as low pay. Venus debilitated can also show difficulties in social aspects of jobs or difficulties with specific cultural aspects, such as prejudices or difficult customers. The fact that the 10th lord is combust suggests there may be many things about the job you are not aware of or may not understand. I would find out as much as possible about the job before considering accepting. Since the Sun is so positive here, there are likely other opportunities for you at the moment, so it may be wise to consider other options too. Venus soon changes sign to her dignity, which could also suggest that looking for another opportunity might work out better. With Aries opportunities come when you have a good work ethic and make an effort to find them, especially in leadership roles or being more outgoing in some way.

Is the field a creative field such as arts, music, theater, fabrics, etc? Just curious.

A horary should help tell you about the quality of an opportunity and if it is right for you or if other opportunities might be better, so maybe ask yourself what the chart is telling you about that rather than just looking for a yes/no answer.
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 248

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WJ - the Mars which lords good and important houses and has sect and term is above horizon. I think in this chart there could be enough "oomph" to act on.

But Mars is in a sign of Jupiter's detriment though receiving Jupiter by Ptolemic term, and Moon is also in a sign of Saturn's fall. Bonatti in Liber Astronomiae said this hinders (he actually said destroys the matter) notwithstanding the easy aspects and planets. Here Jupiter collects Sun and Mars but Jupiter is in Sun's detriment. That's a third detriment. Given the significance of these planets in this chart, this should be saying something about the job? Also the very afflicted Venus.

That said, Tanit convinced me (not that she attempted to) that this sun-jupiter-mars connection can still be good omen because Sun is so strong and Mars isn't weak. In a career chart where our efforts sometimes matter so much, this could be enough to work on. I remember someone not too long ago posting a chart with a Moon in detriment in house 12 and Jupiter in fall coming to a sextile. There was weak mutual reception. The difficulties he encountered were enormous - a dozen of difficult interviews - and he even got a big pay cut right after he accepted the job. But yes he got the job. A similar romance chart would've been too much pain to handle, in my experience.

At least some planets in play are stronger here and in better houses.

Amelia
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1567

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hallo Arya

I would like to make some comments on some of your statements:

"the sextile aspect is perfect"

This wording is not correct, so misleading, because this sextile has
been perfect before you asked the question, but now Venus is se-
parating from Jupiter, even though only by 12 Minutes.

This separating sextile cannot bring about that you could at all work
for the firm.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11107

As far as I understand the texts in the thread linked to above, they
don't discuss Mars in angles, but Scorpio rising with the position of
Mars elswhere in the chart.

Because there is a "NO, you would not work for this firm in the end",
you can relax and must not reflect to eventually stress your friend
and possibly your friendship by an application for the job.
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Arya



Joined: 16 May 2017
Posts: 25

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow thank you so much for all your answers! I was offline for a few days and thrilled to see all the great wisdom you poured out here.

So I can see that the answers are not quite agreeing with each others, some are saying a big no and others a yes with efforts.

Maybe I can explain a bit more about the situation, and why the chart might be complex. It might be a bit weird for some of you, so please keep an open mind.

I'm on a spiritual path since several years, and this friend is actually my spiritual guide (maybe it explains the Neptune connexion). I'm at a point in my life where I have let go of almost everything that used to matter to me, and I would like to go full on now, change job and move closer to the place where I can receive teachings.

I don't care at all for the job by itself, which is making wind chimes (so there is some aspect of art/music in it as Tanit pointed out). Basically for me it would be more like living in an ashram and doing some seva work, the work/salary by itself does not matter so much as being in the proximity of a spiritual master and being able to focus better on my practice. Having this job would allow me to be closer to him (I live about 600km away), and it would be a change from a stressful job (I'm a software developer now) to something more basic and grounded, simplier, which would allow me more peace of mind for meditating.

It's very interesting what Tanit said about other opportunities being out there, I'm right now considering applying for an 8 months course in his city to train in a manual job, I just would like to be able to move there basically, no matter what I do there. Maybe it's also why all the planets are in the bottom half, as there is more of an inner motivation for the change than a desire to succeed materially, out in the world.

I hope the chart shows that it will happen, even if it's not by working directly at the same firm, but at least in the same city.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1141

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it a little unsettling for a spiritual master to be Mars square Neptune from the 7th house. Normally someone who is full of wisdom and is in touch with their spirituality would be lorded by something more benefic in nature, especially Jupiter or would be Jupiter and would not be in a house I tend to associate with wanting control of others (the 7th house).

Mars in a sign of Mercury, and square Neptune is not something particularly trustworthy in energy and can sometimes be associated with drug use, scandals, etc. This would suggest someone with a magnetic and strong personality though and who uses words as their tool, such as being a good writer or speaker. If Mars were sextile or trine Neptune it would not be quite so odd...

I guess if this is a matter of living in a state of minimalism this Mars make some sense but it still seems odd to me. I am curious what others might think about that. Spirituality being at the forefront fits the sign rising and the nature of your significator. For Mars to be lorded by Mercury while Mercury is in Aries and Moon is also in Aries is especially odd to me for a spiritual question. Maybe there is something fundamental about the teachings I am unfamiliar with though, such as teaching autonomy, activism and living a Spartan existence. I will say that at least Mars is heavily aspected by benefics and is not aspecting Pluto, so it definitely is not as bad as some charts that pop into my head regarding some of the symbolism of cult leader types.
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Arya



Joined: 16 May 2017
Posts: 25

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But if we are talking of him as a spiritual teacher, wouldn't he be signified by the 9th lord? I'm more into vedic astrology where it would be the case, not sure how it is in western.

I've met many spiritual teachers along the years, some with more cultish personality than others, but never anyone like him. For one thing he doesn't charge anything, he lives a normal life, with wife, children and a job, he talks with a few seekers one on one on the side, for free, he doesn't ask anything, neither respect, money, friendship, life change.. It's actually difficult to create a relationship with him as he is so aloof in a way, it's also why I'm a bit afraid of asking him to come closer as he might say no (but if I don't ask and just do it he wouldn't send me away!). He reminds me of what I have read about Nisargadatta Maharaj, if you know of him, a very unassuming man, a householder, but with an incredible level of insight and realisation, and also with a fiery personality.

Edit: about being lorded by Mars though it makes sense in a way, he has a very warrior style in his way of teaching, no bullshit, no wishy-washyness, not getting stuck in traditions, going beyond concepts and ideas in a very martian way, all about courage, spending years meditating in caves etc
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1141

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which planet do you think fits him best here? Whenever I ask a question that involves someone, the chart always describes the person in such a way that I feel confident that planet is them and there is little question in my mind about which planet represents them.

Since you addressed him as a friend and he supervises the work, I assumed as much but also the chart was highlighting Mars, the 11th lord, by putting it on a tight angle. The 9th lord is still lorded by Mars (as is the Moon) and aspects it as well and Mars is lorded by it in turn.

If you give him the 9th lord then the Moon is prohibited from aspecting it via Saturn though, which could represent a problem if you were to approach him (it lords the 2nd in the 2nd).

Ultimately it is up to you to make heads or tails of the chart and sigs but we are here to help throw ideas about symbolism, techniques, etc.

Keep us posted
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Arya



Joined: 16 May 2017
Posts: 25

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I hadn't thought about it before but it's interesting to note that in my birth chart my 9th ruler Jupiter is conjunct Mars in sagittarius, and if I look back I always liked teachers who are very fiery and sharp in their way of teaching, a bit like Zen masters who teach through words but also through a sharp blow on the head when necessary.

So I think mars fits him more than Mercury, I will think about all you said and see what my next move should be, and update. Thank you again.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1567

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arya wrote:

I hope the chart shows that it will happen, even if it's not by working directly at the same firm, but at least in the same city.


But this is quite another question (and matter) as your first question, Arya.
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Wisdom Joy



Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Posts: 154

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both for sharing so generously. I learned a lot from this thread. Thank you!
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WJ
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 248

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arya, thank you for the feedback.

True, this isn't an ordinary 10th house matter, especially when you don't much care for the job. It is the 9th house.

But I think the Sun is very descriptive of your teacher. This sun rules and combusts the mercury (your 9th). His approach is fiery, he is aloof (exalted), he is private and not doing this for money or career advancement or publicity (the 4th, as opposed to the 10th), he has a certain kind of authority over you (Sun), and you are so in awe you are willing to turn your life upside down to study with him (Sun combusting both your 9th and your 10th).

But it is your call and I will respect any planet you choose.

My hunch is that although it would be difficult to be geographically quite close to him (for reasons other and I suggested), you will still be able to learn from him. This Sun-Mars-Jupiter interplay means more than I thought. I think the angular Mars has lots to do with the total and intellectual nature of your proposed move.

Amelia
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