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Accurate birth time on hospital birth records?
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 911

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:16 pm    Post subject: Accurate birth time on hospital birth records? Reply with quote

How accurate are UK birth records for the time of birth? And also how accurate are birth certificates which record the birth time in places like the USA and Scotland?

Are any likely to be rounded up to the hour or half hour?

In the UK the midwife always writes down the time of birth, which is on the hospital discharge papers, but these usually get lost, unlike birth certificates which if lost can be re-ordered. In the UK, birth certificates don't have the time of birth. I wondered why the midwife records the time of birth, who is it for? Presumably not astrologers. And I have read people saying that the midwife uses an analogue clock, which may not be completely accurate. From the midwife's point of view, does it matter if the birth time is five minutes wrong? Or even ten minutes wrong?

When you are trying to time Solar Arcs, four minutes of time can mean a whole degree, or a whole year, for the Solar Arc Ascendant, even for a Libra Ascendant, which is a sign of fairly long ascension in the UK. Four minutes of time could be extremely significant for signs of short ascension like Aquarius and Pisces.

The situation might be different in the USA, where exact birth times could be more likely? Lois Rodden gave an AA rating to birth times from a birth certificate, so she obviously thought they were accurate?
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 512

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian Stone discusses astro research and birth times on
https://astrologyforaquarius.com/articles/420/astro-research-and-birth-times/

Lois Rodden who pioneered the accuracy of birth times rated AA charts as the most accurate as they come from birth certificates but research into thousands of AA birth times forces the conclusion that the accuracy of these recorded times varies greatly.
If you take 100 births – each attended by 100 different physicians or midwives with their own procedure for noting and recording the birth time – here’s what the research astrologer doesn’t know.

Stone suggests the ratings
AA-1 – any birth time that ends in a 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 or 9 number of minutes.
AA-2 – any birth time ending in a 5, 10, 20, 25, 35, 40, 50 or 55 number of minutes.
AA-3 – any birth time ending in a 15 or 45 number of minutes.
AA-5 – any birth time occurring on the half-hour – the 30 minute mark.
AA-7 – any birth time occurring on the hour
As the margin of error increases, the reliability of the chart decreases.
To obtain the most reliable astrological knowledge the charts used in any astro-research project should have a AA-1 birth data rating.

I did a research on my own chart even if my birth certificate was AA-1 where I entered 10 important events in my life and put them in the grinder of Secondary Progressions, Solar Arcs, transits, primary directions, Converse also and the one that stands out is the use of midpoints.
In the Sidereal section on Skyscript, Linchi who has done extensive research on Harmonics uses an orb of 10' to a planet or a midpoint on smaller Harmonics up to 16. Zachariel is also doing similar research but I am not sure of the orb he uses.
For my own, I use a 5' orb.
For example, if you look at the transiting midpoint VE/JU to hit your ASC, it must be in the range of 10 minutes orb.
So we are not even in the 1 degree (4 minutes of time) or 1 degree 30m orb (6 minutes of time recommended by cosmobiologist or uranian astrologers.
Working with a 10 minutes orb hit means that you will be about 40 seconds away (applying) from the correct birth time. And it must be consistant, not just one event but several.

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Ouranos
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linchi



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience I can say that the birth times from USA are more reliable than from England. It is useless to think about whether the midwife wrote the birth time correctly or not. Because every birth circumstance is different. It is important to have a reliable method to check or correct the birth time.

Ouranos wrote:
Brian Stone discusses astro research and birth times on
https://astrologyforaquarius.com/articles/420/astro-research-and-birth-times/

Lois Rodden who pioneered the accuracy of birth times rated AA charts as the most accurate as they come from birth certificates but research into thousands of AA birth times forces the conclusion that the accuracy of these recorded times varies greatly.
If you take 100 births – each attended by 100 different physicians or midwives with their own procedure for noting and recording the birth time – here’s what the research astrologer doesn’t know.

Stone suggests the ratings
AA-1 – any birth time that ends in a 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 or 9 number of minutes.
AA-2 – any birth time ending in a 5, 10, 20, 25, 35, 40, 50 or 55 number of minutes.
AA-3 – any birth time ending in a 15 or 45 number of minutes.
AA-5 – any birth time occurring on the half-hour – the 30 minute mark.
AA-7 – any birth time occurring on the hour
As the margin of error increases, the reliability of the chart decreases.

You are assuming that the AA Rated birth times are correct. It could still be that some are wrong because AA only means that there is a birth certificate, nothing more. It still needs to be verified whether it is correct.
The main problem is, which methods should we use to check the birth times and correct them if necessary .

Quote:
To obtain the most reliable astrological knowledge the charts used in any astro-research project should have a AA-1 birth data rating.

It depends on what you're researching. If you are only researching planetary pictures without AC and MC, then you don't need exact birth times. It could also be half hour wrong, if we search e.g. in harmonic 16 NE/PL = SU planet picture.

Quote:
I did a research on my own chart even if my birth certificate was AA-1 where I entered 10 important events in my life and put them in the grinder of Secondary Progressions, Solar Arcs, transits, primary directions, Converse also and the one that stands out is the use of midpoints.

Are you absolutely sure of your birth time now, after using so many techniques?
You had to use correct progression keys to avoid mistakes, because there are different progression keys. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you use many life events, but how precise the life events are and if these events are clearly defined astrologically with planetary pictures.

Quote:
In the Sidereal section on Skyscript, Linchi who has done extensive research on Harmonics uses an orb of 10' to a planet or a midpoint on smaller Harmonics up to 16.

When it comes to birth time correction, I don't use harmonic 16.
For the minutes exact birth time correction I use harmonic 4096 and take 2 seconds of orb. For second-by-second exact birth time correction, I use Harmonoic 16384 and 65536 and there is no orb. And I don't use AC and MC at all for birth time correction.

My works are here :

Birth Time Correction

https://ia600705.us.archive.org/3/items/BirthTimeCorrection/Birth%20Time%20Correction.pdf

The exact time of death and birth time correction

https://ia801000.us.archive.org/22/items/TheExactTimeOfDeathAndBirthTimeCorrection/The%20exact%20time%20of%20death%20and%20birth%20time%20correction.pdf
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Linchi for your precision.

Quote:
You are assuming that the AA Rated birth times are correct. It could still be that some are wrong because AA only means that there is a birth certificate, nothing more. It still needs to be verified whether it is correct.

No, I assume all charts are incorrect unless they have passed the test of meaningful events! And yes, it is important to have a reliable method!

Quote:
Are you absolutely sure of your birth time now, after using so many techniques?

I started from scratch without excluding any systems. Except for one, they all showed up a peak in the range of 4 minutes of time, which is a good start but for me that was not enough, I needed even more precision and that is where the midpoints showed a big difference, even in smaller Harmonics. Keep in mind that I was not looking at planetary pictures but focusing on the ASC which should be the final icing on the cake! Otherwise, some planetary pictures will show the same thing for thousand of people born at the same time.

Agree with you that the planetary pictures need to be there and I highly respect your work!

Ouranos
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Cruiser1



Joined: 27 Sep 2017
Posts: 67
Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:
Stone suggests the ratings
AA-1 – any birth time that ends in a 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 or 9 number of minutes.
AA-7 – any birth time occurring on the hour

These ratings can indicate a potentially suspect time (or lack thereof) but can't necessary prove things one way or the other.

For example, AA-7 is fully accurate 1/60 of the time. I was born at 11:01am, which is AA-1. Assuming competent birth minute recording, then if I had been born a minute earlier, my birth time would be 11:00am instead. That would be just as accurate to the minute, but many astrologers would look at that even hour suspiciously.

Similarly, an AA-1 time might be inaccurate. Suppose a baby has complications, and the doctors work to save its life for the next hour or so. After that time passes and the baby's safe, the doctor realizes they still need to record a birth time. They've been working for "about an hour", and the current time is 2:23am, so the best estimate is to record 1:23am for the birth time, even though that's likely off by quite a few minutes.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 512

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed Cruiser1
Thank you for sharing and all birth rectification investigators will agree with you.
I am very aware that even 1 minute can make a huge difference.
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james_m



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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this conversation also goes into the question what exactly is the birth moment? there are a number of options to choose from...
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 512

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
this conversation also goes into the question what exactly is the birth moment? there are a number of options to choose from...

I subscribe to the idea that the birth moment is the moment of first breath when the baby becomes an entity of its own. Accompanied by a first cry. There will be many more crying in our life which signal other kind of needed rebirths!

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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 242

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
this conversation also goes into the question what exactly is the birth moment? there are a number of options to choose from...

Have you considered when a baby first opens its eyes and its pineal gland is activated? But then what if you're born blind?
Just a thought and one more to add to your list.
~AJ
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am just trying to add to the mystery of it all, but i know the folks who want the hard details will get annoyed with me! they are trying to do the opposite! we can add your suggestion to the list of moments for exactamundo timing here.. maybe get a uranian astrologer to work out some special harmonic formula in sidereal for the uranian planet connected to the pineal gland while we're at it.. the possibilities are endless, like a conversation with plato, ya know...
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 242

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
i am just trying to add to the mystery of it all, but i know the folks who want the hard details will get annoyed with me! they are trying to do the opposite! we can add your suggestion to the list of moments for exactamundo timing here.. maybe get a uranian astrologer to work out some special harmonic formula in sidereal for the uranian planet connected to the pineal gland while we're at it.. the possibilities are endless, like a conversation with plato, ya know...

I'll have you know I did that very thing under the full Moon conjunct Jupiter night before last. A conversation with Plato that is. BTW, Plato is the neighbor's cat.
You can be a very cranky fellow james. lol.
On a serious note, I get your point, for all of our knowledge there is still so much controversy over the actual time of birth. Like in the West, Indian astrology leans towards when the newborn takes its first breath. Some schools of Indian astrology (like in the West too) put a lot of emphasis on the prenatal epoch which circumvents the whole argument to a degree. If you believe in a soul the whole subject becomes even more cloudy because suddenly it jumps to a metaphysical versus simply a biological function happening at birth. I guess one of the first questions should be exactly what kind of event we as astrologers are actually trying to capture with the birthchart.
I am not trying to start a debate here, it is simply some gas from my second stomach. I also apologize if I have hijacked the thread some, back to chewing my cud. lol.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ, welcome back to Skyscript! I'm happy that you have worked out your Internet connection problems that were keeping you from posting on Skyscript.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 242

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
AJ, welcome back to Skyscript! I'm happy that you have worked out your Internet connection problems that were keeping you from posting on Skyscript.

Thanks Therese. It remains to be seen if the problems are ironed out. It was more of a test to see if it has calmed down. I am using a new internet provider now though I don't think that was the problem. More likely had to do with my firewall which was recently updated. Time will tell.
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Michael Sternbach
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Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Location: Switzerland

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Therese Hamilton wrote:
AJ, welcome back to Skyscript! I'm happy that you have worked out your Internet connection problems that were keeping you from posting on Skyscript.

Thanks Therese. It remains to be seen if the problems are ironed out. It was more of a test to see if it has calmed down. I am using a new internet provider now though I don't think that was the problem. More likely had to do with my firewall which was recently updated. Time will tell.


Hi AJ

I suggest trying a different firewall if the problem persists.

Your friendly mod Wink
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 242

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:

I suggest trying a different firewall if the problem persists.
Your friendly mod Wink

Thank you for your concern and suggestion Michael, it is much appreciated, but my firewall is complicated by the fact is it a hardware product developed by some friends of my oldest son. It works great except with skyscript. The latest upgrade so far is promising. My goal has been to support them and be a technical guinea pig of sorts. They have worked for a year on this particular problem. It has something to do with the oudated code of skyscript which I don't understand at all. I leave it to younger and more clever minds to solve and perhaps they have! Be well and safe in these trying times.
~AJ
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