76
Michael, I found this quote from Alice Bailey in a secondary source. Apparently it comes from her Esoteric Healing, p. 263.

"Today the law [karma] is working and the Jews are paying the
price, factually and symbolically, for all they have done in
the past. ... They have never faced candidly and honestly (as
a race) the problem of why the many nations, from the time of
the Egyptians, have neither liked nor wanted them. ... The
Jewish problem will be solved by the willingness of the Jew
to conform to the civilization, the cultural background and
the standards of living of the nation to which he is related
and with which he should assimilate. ... It [the solution to
the Jewish problem] will come when selfishness in business
relations and the pronounced manipulative tendencies of the
Hebrew people are exchanged for more selfless and honest
forms of activity."

https://www.nonduality.com/alice.htm

The discussants complain that the Lucis Trust, a repository of Bailey's work, have scrubbed" such statements out of their editions.

77
Michael, just one other thing I might mention, is that the horoscope obviously has a daily, as well as a seasonal function. The signs do not take exactly two hours to run through a day, but they visually divide the 24-hour day into 12 segments of time called houses, measured in hours and minutes.

I am a big fan of Deborah Houlding's book, Houses: Temples of the Sky. I accept her argument that we cannot simply conflate signs and houses. Nevertheless, as Dorian Greenbaum and Micah Ross have shown, there is a strong argument to be made for an Egyptian origin for astrological houses.

If we focus on the cradle of horoscopic astrology in Alexandria, Egypt in the early centuries BCE, there is some evidence that they did conflate signs and houses, notably with the whole signs house system.

What happens if we look at the 8th house and Scorpio as the traditional house of death from a diurnal perspective?

The time corresponds with mid-late afternoon, which is the heat of the day in July-August. The hot part of the day doesn't come at noon, but sometime after that. This is the time when people and animals take cover.

https://www.weather-atlas.com/en/egypt/ ... her-august

This would be the one argument I can think of for a "death planet" ruling a fire sign. Just probably not Aries, more like Leo. Unsurprisingly, hot dry Mars was anciently given to Scorpio.

The other death part is that actual scorpions in Egypt can be deadly. Again, the scorpion's stinger is a good match for weapon-ruling Mars, but it would fit with a death-dealing planet of some other description.

I don't know how this would have worked out a few thousand years ago, what with precession, but the constellation Scorpio appears in the summer sky, these days.

78
waybread wrote:
Michael Sternbach wrote:
waybread wrote:Michael, it's not hard to make a case for Pluto as modern co-ruler of Scorpio. As co-ruler of Aries, not so much.
The thing is, Pluto's rulership of Scorpio is taken for granted by almost all contemporary astrologers, even though opinions were divided first in the time after Pluto's discovery. To assess his potential co-rulership of Aries in an unbiased manner, we must think out of the box and consider how this planet's innate nature would express himself in Fire rather than in Water - that's quite a different animal!
We have some history and horoscopes to go by, surely. The Baby Boomers are the Pluto in Leo generation. Pluto was recently in Sagittarius. The Boomers have been noted, even by non-astrologers, for a sense of entitlement and self-centeredness. Pluto was in Aries last from 1822-1853. The Astro-DataBank www.astro.com should have a good selection of horoscopes for these people.
Just for Pluto in Aries, Astro-DataBank offers roughly 2000 horoscopes that fit the bill. ???? We would need to narrow down the choice for our purposes here. Let me think about how to go about this practically... ????

Talking about Leo, this is actually Pluto's exaltation in my book. The Baby Boomers' much noted "sense of entitlement and self-centerness" could very well speak to that.

My idea is to better understand Pluto's nature on its own terms as well as to reflect on how that nature expresses itself in the different elements and qualities.

One of the key terms would certainly be 'death and rebirth'.
I don't deny that some accurate statements can be made along those lines, but our knowledge of the origin of the Greek gods is rather limited. Some may be of Lybian, Minoan and/or Egyptian provenance. We just don't know how exactly they came into existence!
We can look at cultures with written records, and see what they tell us. We don't have to speculate entirely. A lot of Greco-Roman mythology is known to have come from Babylon, notably re: their planetary gods.
That would be notable indeed! According to that, it would have been Babylonian planetary gods that partially inspired the Greeks for their own deities, which they placed onto the planets in turn...

The only problem with it is that Babylonian gods are quite different from their Greek equivalents, though; for instance, Babylonian Ishtar is also a war goddess, which Greco-Roman Aphrodite/Venus is obviously not.
What really matters, though, is that they mysteriously bear the very traits that characterize the planets, as evidenced in our astrological experience. They can't be the source of those traits, otherwise there would be no objective truth to astrology.
Sherlock Holmes famously said that if you are trying to solve a mystery, you eleminate all of the possibilities that do not fit the facts. What is left must be the truth. Put differently, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck..... it's a duck.
In all likelihood.

Image

We cannot ignore information that bothers us out of fear that our glorious edifice of astrology will come crashing down. If we know horoscope interpretation has merit today, then the objectivity problem is not so important.

I see astrology as highly subjective. This doesn't bother me. I'd suggest that we inquire into how this subjectivity works.

If we're not looking at a causal relationship between planets and human behavior, perhaps we can look at the horoscope as a form of 4D graphic communication that stimulates astrologers' abilities to grasp information beyond linear time and space.
I agree that the astrological observer may factor more heavily, than some 'objectivist astrologers' wish to give them credit for. It could even be that astrology, despite its 'exact' mathematical and astronomical framework, isn't fundamentally different from other methods of divination (Tarot, I-ching etc.) in that respect. (This may be most obvious in the case of Horary.)

However, what is really going on here appears to be multi-layered - and poorly understood.
That's an interesting observation. It indeed raises the question where this myth and the deities it involves had their cultural origin. For instance, Demeter is now seen as a central goddess of the Minoans, along with other prominent members of the Greek pantheon.

http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/e023.htm
Ancient Mediterranean and Near East societies were in contact with one another through trade, military invasion, and population migration. Archaeological finds attest to trade networks.

Crete and Mycenae are seen as ancestral to ancient Greece. Their deities traveled with them (Sometimes literally, for the idol-worshippers.) We know from the Bible that the prophets often scolded the Israelites for worshipping their neighbors' gods. The Philistines were probably the ancient Mycenaeans.

Some of the mythology is probably Indo-European.

When gods "migrate" they may take on attributes of the new host society through the process of syncretism. The gods may diversify in new locales or lose older attributes. It seems to have been a fluid process.
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79
waybread wrote:Michael, just one other thing I might mention, is that the horoscope obviously has a daily, as well as a seasonal function. The signs do not take exactly two hours to run through a day, but they visually divide the 24-hour day into 12 segments of time called houses, measured in hours and minutes.

I am a big fan of Deborah Houlding's book, Houses: Temples of the Sky. I accept her argument that we cannot simply conflate signs and houses. Nevertheless, as Dorian Greenbaum and Micah Ross have shown, there is a strong argument to be made for an Egyptian origin for astrological houses.

If we focus on the cradle of horoscopic astrology in Alexandria, Egypt in the early centuries BCE, there is some evidence that they did conflate signs and houses, notably with the whole signs house system.

What happens if we look at the 8th house and Scorpio as the traditional house of death from a diurnal perspective?

The time corresponds with mid-late afternoon, which is the heat of the day in July-August. The hot part of the day doesn't come at noon, but sometime after that. This is the time when people and animals take cover.

https://www.weather-atlas.com/en/egypt/ ... her-august

This would be the one argument I can think of for a "death planet" ruling a fire sign. Just probably not Aries, more like Leo. Unsurprisingly, hot dry Mars was anciently given to Scorpio.

The other death part is that actual scorpions in Egypt can be deadly. Again, the scorpion's stinger is a good match for weapon-ruling Mars, but it would fit with a death-dealing planet of some other description.

I don't know how this would have worked out a few thousand years ago, what with precession, but the constellation Scorpio appears in the summer sky, these days.
Indeed, depending on location, the scathing heat of the Sun when he reaches the 8th house suggests a fiery planet as its "mundane ruler".

And the scorpion with its deadly stinger is surely a Martian creature par excellence - not least, because most kinds live quite comfortably in the relentless heat and dryness of the desert (and Mars is a desert planet, as we know today).

These are good hints. Thanks for playing the game! ????

Making a case for Mars being Scorpio's primary ruler, I would add that not only is he nocturnal, but he uniquely rules the Water trigon both at day and night! Surely not all astrologers followed Ptolemy in this, but one very prominent one who did so was William Lilly.

I believe this conforms with the common understanding of triplicity in horary astrology?
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80
Hi Michael-- I will get back to your more recent posts, but you had asked about further references to Pluto, Demeter, and Persephone.

There is a fair bit in the Orphic hymns. Orphism was a secret mystery cult, so apparently it was hard to even date them. The English in this 1792 version is kind of archaic but the translator was trying to rhyme it-- not too happily, unfortunately. Hopefully you can find a more recent German translation

https://www.theoi.com/Text/OrphicHymns1.html

There are references to the rape of Persephone in the Pluto and Persephone hymns. This one does suggest she goes underground in Autumn, but she doesn't seem to emerge as a goddess, but in the form of spring vegetation.

Hymn 39 is to Ceres/Demeter. It's interesting that whereas Persephone is the spring, Ceres represents the harvest and threshing of grain.

Orpheus himself was one of the few mythological characters to descend to Hades and return, although losing his wife Eurydice in the process.

81
waybread wrote:Hi Michael-- I will get back to your more recent posts, but you had asked about further references to Pluto, Demeter, and Persephone.

There is a fair bit in the Orphic hymns. Orphism was a secret mystery cult, so apparently it was hard to even date them. The English in this 1792 version is kind of archaic but the translator was trying to rhyme it-- not too happily, unfortunately. Hopefully you can find a more recent German translation

https://www.theoi.com/Text/OrphicHymns1.html

There are references to the rape of Persephone in the Pluto and Persephone hymns. This one does suggest she goes underground in Autumn, but she doesn't seem to emerge as a goddess, but in the form of spring vegetation.
Hi Waybread

That's truly awesome material. Much appreciated. ????

Image



By the way, rumor has it that Persephone/Proserpina was not all that averse to Pluto, at the end of the day.

Image


Hymn 39 is to Ceres/Demeter. It's interesting that whereas Persephone is the spring, Ceres represents the harvest and threshing of grain.
Talking about Ceres, it's noteworthy that planetary scientists now find her dwarf planet to be closely related with Pluto.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sc ... lost-twins

Major differences in their evolution being attributed to the fact, that one dwells in a relatively warm and light-drenched zone of the solar system, the other in its downright cold and dark region.
Orpheus himself was one of the few mythological characters to descend to Hades and return, although losing his wife Eurydice in the process.
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82
Waybread,

Perhaps you find this interesting? The author of this article assumes that, just like Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are sometimes considered higher octaves of Mercury, Venus and Mars, the dwarf planets Makemake, Haumea and Eris might be higher octaves of the three known trans-Saturnians.

As a higher octave of Mars/Pluto, Eris could indeed have a close affinity with Aries without necessarily replacing this sign's more common ruler(s).

https://www.astro.com/astrology/tma_article211214_e.htm
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83
Michael Sternbach wrote:...
Talking about Leo, this is actually Pluto's exaltation in my book. The Baby Boomers' much noted "sense of entitlement and self-centerness" could very well speak to that.

My idea is to better understand Pluto's nature on its own terms as well as to reflect on how that nature expresses itself in the different elements and qualities.

One of the key terms would certainly be 'death and rebirth'.
I'm not convinced that it makes sense to talk about modern outers having an exaltation (and by extension, a fall.) Surely we can discuss how a given sign affects a planet's manner of expression, though.

I am apparently missing something, because I have never gotten the idea of a modern planet being a "higher octave" of a traditional planet. How would one even use that in chart interpretation? The modern outers have historically accompanied a lot of misfortunes, so I don't see them as necessarily at a higher level of consciousness. (Cf. Neptune and drug addiction.)

I think it is very worthwhile to rethink Pluto-- but what would re-assigning its domicile to Aries actually accomplish? I imagine that astrologers did work with that after 1930, because Aries is logically the next sign after Neptune in Pisces. It would be interesting to do some historical research on the mid-20th century to see what was the thinking, and who proposed Scorpio.
That would be notable indeed! According to that, it would have been Babylonian planetary gods that partially inspired the Greeks for their own deities, which they placed onto the planets in turn...

The only problem with it is that Babylonian gods are quite different from their Greek equivalents, though; for instance, Babylonian Ishtar is also a war goddess, which Greco-Roman Aphrodite/Venus is obviously not.
I don't think the Mesopotamian gods transferred identically to Greece, but a planet simplifies what was written or worshipped about a relevant god. For example, suppose we discuss the planet Mars in a horoscope: maybe the native wants to know if joining the military is a good career move. Mars rules soldiers and warfare, as does Ares [modern Greeks still use their own names for planets.] The Babylonian planet Mars was ruled by their god Nergal, who also ruled warfare.

In the absence of the planet Pluto, Nergal also had underworld and death connotations. Which fits well with The Scorpion's traditional Mars domicile.
I agree that the astrological observer may factor more heavily, than some 'objectivist astrologers' wish to give them credit for. It could even be that astrology, despite its 'exact' mathematical and astronomical framework, isn't fundamentally different from other methods of divination (Tarot, I-ching etc.) in that respect. (This may be most obvious in the case of Horary.)

However, what is really going on here appears to be multi-layered - and poorly understood.
Agreed. I have my own theory on this: that astrology "works" (assuming it does) as a form of graphic communication. I started a thread on this question once http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 33&start=0 . I don't think I convinced anyone, though.
Last edited by waybread on Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

84
Michael Sternbach wrote:
Indeed, depending on location, the scathing heat of the Sun when he reaches the 8th house suggests a fiery planet as its "mundane ruler".

And the scorpion with its deadly stinger is surely a Martian creature par excellence - not least, because most kinds live quite comfortably in the relentless heat and dryness of the desert (and Mars is a desert planet, as we know today).

These are good hints. Thanks for playing the game! ????

Making a case for Mars being Scorpio's primary ruler, I would add that not only is he nocturnal, but he uniquely rules the Water trigon both at day and night! Surely not all astrologers followed Ptolemy in this, but one very prominent one who did so was William Lilly.

I believe this conforms with the common understanding of triplicity in horary astrology?
I think Ptolemy's genius (if I can call it that) was in trying to fit a jumble of different astrological and mythological traditions into a rational Aristotelian framework. Usually I think he did this pretty well, but occasionally there is some slippage.

Scorpio works well as a water sign if we think of November as the serious onset of the rainy season in a Mediterranean climate.

It doesn't work so well from a diurnal perspective, though, when we recognize mid-afternoon as the warmest part of the day, which can be deadly in summer in a desert climate like Egypt or Iraq.. And yes-- interesting associations between the desert, Mars, deadly scorpions

85
Hi Michael-- Pluto, Ceres/Demeter, and Proserpina/Persephone are an interesting trio.

In many Greek myths, there is little or no mention of Proserpina/Persephone as migrating between the upper and lower worlds. She is simply Queen of the Dead, and Pluto's consort.

Some of the ancient Greek artwork depicts the two goddesses as nearly identical adult women, suggesting that they are simply different sides of the same goddess.

BTW, there is another story involving Persephone and the descent into hell. Apparently Persephone and Venus/Aphrodite were both enamored of the same good-looking young man, Adonis. The conclusion was that Adonis divided his time between the two goddesses. https://www.theoi.com/articles/who-is-a ... mythology/

Adonis seems to have gotten his start in life as a Near Eastern agricultural god.

86
waybread wrote:
Michael Sternbach wrote:...
Talking about Leo, this is actually Pluto's exaltation in my book. The Baby Boomers' much noted "sense of entitlement and self-centerness" could very well speak to that.

My idea is to better understand Pluto's nature on its own terms as well as to reflect on how that nature expresses itself in the different elements and qualities.

One of the key terms would certainly be 'death and rebirth'.
I'm not convinced that it makes sense to talk about modern outers having an exaltation (and by extension, a fall.) Surely we can discuss how a given sign affects a planet's manner of expression, though.
It depends on how you like to model your astrology. To me, modern astrology is a straightforward extension of traditional astrology. It is subject to the same principles. Thus, it is only logical to assume that the outers have their domiciles and exaltations too.
I am apparently missing something, because I have never gotten the idea of a modern planet being a "higher octave" of a traditional planet. How would one even use that in chart interpretation?
It is more of an approach to understanding the basic nature of the trans-Saturnian planets. The underlying idea being that the order of the outer planets reflects and repeats the inner series, with the more personality-centered forces of the latter turned universal.
The modern outers have historically accompanied a lot of misfortunes, so I don't see them as necessarily at a higher level of consciousness. (Cf. Neptune and drug addiction.)
Not necessarily. In fact, they can be at a lower level in the sense that they represent instinctive, subconscious and collective psychological forces that the ego has little control over.

However, moving beyond the boundaries of the conscious personality, the extremes do touch. There's a thin line between genius and madness. The mystic and the drug addict are dwelling in the same waters, only the former is swimming, the latter is drowning. And so forth.
I think it is very worthwhile to rethink Pluto-- but what would re-assigning its domicile to Aries actually accomplish? I imagine that astrologers did work with that after 1930, because Aries is logically the next sign after Neptune in Pisces.
In my view, the domicile scheme is astrology's rational underpinning. It used to have a logically deducible structure before. Along those lines, it would be only logical to assign Pluto to Aries (as you say).

Without a stringent theoretical foundation, astrology cannot hope to regain its status as a science.

Also, if Pluto's relationship to Aries has hitherto been neglected, reestablishing it would obviously have implications for the understanding of this planet and for the practice of astrology overall.
It would be interesting to do some historical research on the mid-20th century to see what was the thinking, and who proposed Scorpio.
The article I linked in my OP, written by fellow Skyscript member Philip M. Graves, is a fascinating discussion of Pluto's zodiacal assignment mostly before his actual discovery in 1930. For (nothwithstanding the popular story that Pluto got his name from an eleven-year old girl, with reference to Mickey Mouse's dog) he had been predicted and correctly named by a surprising number of astrologers years ahead of his first observation.

While Pluto's assignments to Scorpio and Aries, respectively, were quite evenly distributed initially, the scales rather quickly tipped in favour of the former after his discovery. I remember having heard that his official nomination as the Lord of Scorpio was the result of a poll in the astrological community, but I would have to verify that.
That would be notable indeed! According to that, it would have been Babylonian planetary gods that partially inspired the Greeks for their own deities, which they placed onto the planets in turn...

The only problem with it is that Babylonian gods are quite different from their Greek equivalents, though; for instance, Babylonian Ishtar is also a war goddess, which Greco-Roman Aphrodite/Venus is obviously not.
I don't think the Mesopotamian gods transferred identically to Greece, but a planet simplifies what was written or worshipped about a relevant god. For example, suppose we discuss the planet Mars in a horoscope: maybe the native wants to know if joining the military is a good career move. Mars rules soldiers and warfare, as does Ares [modern Greeks still use their own names for planets.] The Babylonian planet Mars was ruled by their god Nergal, who also ruled warfare.

In the absence of the planet Pluto, Nergal also had underworld and death connotations. Which fits well with The Scorpion's traditional Mars domicile.
Yes, I noticed that too when I took a closer look at the Babylonian planetary gods! :D
I agree that the astrological observer may factor more heavily, than some 'objectivist astrologers' wish to give them credit for. It could even be that astrology, despite its 'exact' mathematical and astronomical framework, isn't fundamentally different from other methods of divination (Tarot, I-ching etc.) in that respect. (This may be most obvious in the case of Horary.)

However, what is really going on here appears to be multi-layered - and poorly understood.
Agreed. I have my own theory on this: that astrology "works" (assuming it does) as a form of graphic communication. I started a thread on this question once http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 33&start=0 . I don't think I convinced anyone, though.
I will take a look at it sometime. :)
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87
waybread wrote:
Michael Sternbach wrote:
Indeed, depending on location, the scathing heat of the Sun when he reaches the 8th house suggests a fiery planet as its "mundane ruler".

And the scorpion with its deadly stinger is surely a Martian creature par excellence - not least, because most kinds live quite comfortably in the relentless heat and dryness of the desert (and Mars is a desert planet, as we know today).

These are good hints. Thanks for playing the game! ????

Making a case for Mars being Scorpio's primary ruler, I would add that not only is he nocturnal, but he uniquely rules the Water trigon both at day and night! Surely not all astrologers followed Ptolemy in this, but one very prominent one who did so was William Lilly.

I believe this conforms with the common understanding of triplicity in horary astrology?
I think Ptolemy's genius (if I can call it that) was in trying to fit a jumble of different astrological and mythological traditions into a rational Aristotelian framework. Usually I think he did this pretty well, but occasionally there is some slippage.
Yes, Ptolemy was instrumental setting astrology into the framework of Aristotelian cosmology. Like other prominent astrologers of the time, he was drawing from the today scarcely extant compendium ascribed to Nechepso and Petosiris and, beyond that, from older Hermetic texts. From my perspective, he did not always know the true rationale of the doctrines he was passing on, though, and substituted explanations of his own making as best he could.
Scorpio works well as a water sign if we think of November as the serious onset of the rainy season in a Mediterranean climate.

It doesn't work so well from a diurnal perspective, though, when we recognize mid-afternoon as the warmest part of the day, which can be deadly in summer in a desert climate like Egypt or Iraq..
And that's where Scorpio's (and, by extension, the 8th house's) association with the red planet's hot and dry nature plays out.
And yes-- interesting associations between the desert, Mars, deadly scorpions
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