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Theoritical questions: out of sign - short ascension aspects

 
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Morganite



Joined: 18 Jun 2020
Posts: 28

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:58 am    Post subject: Theoritical questions: out of sign - short ascension aspects Reply with quote

Hello everyone

I'd like to ask you a couple questions in regards to horary theory. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

My first issue involves the planets' movement(speeds).
"Two dogs chasing the bone, but the third one takes it."
Moon and Saturn, for example, are significators. Saturn is 7 degrees Aquarius and the Moon is 27 degrees Aries. They're using a square and applying outside of the sign but within the orb. Mars has combusted at 5 degrees Libra at the same moment. Mars is closer to Saturn in theory than the Moon, yet the Moon perfects with Saturn first. Is it Mars or the Moon that is interfering?

My second question is short and long ascension. I am using the same example with the Moon and Saturn. Once Moon will cross into Taurus, she will be making a short ascension square. Do we judge that as short ascension square(sextile) or regular square?

Thank you kindly.
M
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Theoritical questions: out of sign - short ascension asp Reply with quote

Morganite wrote:

My first issue involves the planets' movement(speeds).
"Two dogs chasing the bone, but the third one takes it."
Moon and Saturn, for example, are significators. Saturn is 7 degrees Aquarius and the Moon is 27 degrees Aries. They're using a square and applying outside of the sign but within the orb. Mars has combusted at 5 degrees Libra at the same moment. Mars is closer to Saturn in theory than the Moon, yet the Moon perfects with Saturn first. Is it Mars or the Moon that is interfering?

The interfering aspect of Mars is only a quincunx that is not consdered in horary.

So Mars cannot prohibit the square between Saturn and the Moon.

If Mars would cast a valid aspect, then he would prohibit the square between Saturn and Mars, in my opinion.

But prohibition is one of the most interesting matters in astrology and as yet not really treated well by the authorities.
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 262

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some medieval astrologers, notably Bonatti, could be using spatial distance instead of temporal distance. Whatever closer to Saturn spatially, that is, the Mars here, would get to perfect the aspect first.
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/tobyn2.html

(I am a temporal type of chart reader myself and would still give priority to the faster Moon.)

Bonatti also said that an aspect with reception trumped that without reception. I didn't remember any practical example of him applying this though.

As to your second question:

I would consider the current signs. Just to be consistent with traditional astrology's bias for what currently is. If we place such importance on whether an aspect is already within orb, and on term/face reception which we universally do at current degrees, not the degrees where the aspect perfects, I see no reason why we suddenly have to jump ahead of the chart when out-of-sign aspects occur.
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Morganite



Joined: 18 Jun 2020
Posts: 28

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Theoritical questions: out of sign - short ascension asp Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Morganite wrote:

My first issue involves the planets' movement(speeds).
"Two dogs chasing the bone, but the third one takes it."
Moon and Saturn, for example, are significators. Saturn is 7 degrees Aquarius and the Moon is 27 degrees Aries. They're using a square and applying outside of the sign but within the orb. Mars has combusted at 5 degrees Libra at the same moment. Mars is closer to Saturn in theory than the Moon, yet the Moon perfects with Saturn first. Is it Mars or the Moon that is interfering?

The interfering aspect of Mars is only a quincunx that is not consdered in horary.

So Mars cannot prohibit the square between Saturn and the Moon.

If Mars would cast a valid aspect, then he would prohibit the square between Saturn and Mars, in my opinion.

But prohibition is one of the most interesting matters in astrology and as yet not really treated well by the authorities.


johannes susato,

Thank you!

Mars is approaching a perfect trine with Saturn and Moon is meeting Saturn as well.
I apologize, I wasn't clear.

M.
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Morganite



Joined: 18 Jun 2020
Posts: 28

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AmeliaS,

Very logical. Thank you!

M
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 559

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anthony Louis describes the quincunx as follow in his book on Horary Astrology.
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/mashaallah-vs-lilly-on-horary-astrology/

'The quincunx is not a classic astrological aspect, because planets in quincunx are 150 degrees apart and cannot 'see' each other.... similar meanings to signs 'in aversion'. In addition, planets in quincunx are either six or eight houses apart, so themes of illness, bodily ailments, loss anxiety may also be part of the picture."
Besides that, the elements of the 2 planets do not blend well (Fire with Earth for example) and you also get a Feminine sign vs a Masculine sign that don't 'see' each other.

Ivy Jacobson says that any planet six houses after the one it rules in the chart (quincunx) will distress and upset the matters of that house, which she called 'The Angle of Distress'.
So more than just a lack of perfection, it also shows that the querent might be distressed and upset by the outcome of the question.

As for your second question Short vs Long ascencion.
https://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1742
Mark Moderator quotes here Marc Edmund Jones "an emphasis on signs of long ascension in a horary chart indicate a course of development that is more solid and unhurried. An emphasis on signs of short ascension can show rapid development, impulsive action."

And Deborah Houlding says "Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus, check out verses 1-3 at the beginning of his 5th book. Here the signs of long ascension are called straight signs, and the signs of short ascension are called crooked. The reason is that the straight signs rise at a more upright angle to the horizon, whilst the crooked signs rise more obliquely. Consequently this older definition of the signs as straight and crooked has been used in different ways for example, a malefic on the ascendant in a crooked sign might suggest some physical defect in the body."

So there are 3 ways to look at the aspects
-- By signs, which is the common way used in Horary
-- By degrees, where out-of-signs aspects would be dismissed
-- By Right Ascension, also called 'In Mundo' if you were to look at the planets with your eyes in the sky. Like a 3 dimensional view of the sky.
So I would stick with aspects by signs in Horary but would use the 'In Mundo' aspects with Primary Directions and Mundane astrology.
_________________
Blessings!


Last edited by Ouranos on Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Theoritical questions: out of sign - short ascension asp Reply with quote

Morganite wrote:
Mars is approaching a perfect trine with Saturn and Moon is meeting Saturn as well.

Morganite, you gave the persective by describing Saturn and the Moon as
significators.

As the Moon is applying to the square of Saturn this is the constellation
that counts and should be concentrated on. The Moon is perfecting the
square with Saturn, and unprohibited.

That later on Mars is in trine with Saturn is of no concern for this question,
because his quincunx remains unconsidered and can not prohibit the
Moon from her application to the square of Saturn.

If Mars and the Moon were significators, Saturn would collect their light
and would connect Mars with the Moon by collection of light.


Last edited by johannes susato on Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Morganite



Joined: 18 Jun 2020
Posts: 28

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato

Yes, you are correct. Moon and Saturn as significators but Mars is applying to Saturn at the same time and it is closer to Saturn than the Moon.
My thought process would have been Moon gets the Saturn because of the lunar speed uninterrupted in addition to Lunar gaining some major dignity once she changes signs to Taurus and it is not debilitated unlike her counterpart, Mars which is n Libra and applying solar combustion.
Speedwise we have Moon reaching Saturn before Martian trine Saturn. Amelia rightly spotted the different school thought speed vs closeness in degrees.

"The Moon is perfecting the square with Mars, and unprohibited." Did you mean "Saturn" instead of "Mars"?

I would most likely look closer into Saturn if it were to collect lights from Moon and Mars due to lack of reception but again, those are not our significators even in theory.

Thank you kindly
M
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Morganite



Joined: 18 Jun 2020
Posts: 28

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos

Thank you! I came across similar findings in regards to question #2. I wasn't sure if the rule would apply when we have Moon in Aries applying and perfecting a square with Saturn in Aquarius vs Moon in Taurus applying and perfecting with a square to Saturn.

M
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Theoritical questions: out of sign - short ascension asp Reply with quote

Morganite wrote:
"The Moon is perfecting the square with Mars, and unprohibited." Did you mean "Saturn" instead of "Mars"?

Your're right,Morganite. I have corrected my text above.

Thank you!
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Morganite



Joined: 18 Jun 2020
Posts: 28

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Theoritical questions: out of sign - short ascension asp Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Morganite wrote:
"The Moon is perfecting the square with Mars, and unprohibited." Did you mean "Saturn" instead of "Mars"?

Your're right,Morganite. I have corrected my text above.

Thank you!



I was a confused for a second! THANK YOU!
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