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On Reception
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 263

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
AmeliaS wrote:

... chart that is ... on a business deal

Amelia, could you quote the concrete question, please?

Thanks in advance!


"Will Mr. R buy from me?"
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again, Amelia.

This is a question about a purchase. And then the significators are lords 1
and 7, that cannot be replaced by lords 2 and 8 or any planets in houses 2
and 8.

If there would be a contract or agreement, perfected already before, the
question could be about getting the money or the thing qesited for.

Provided my understanding of your question
"Will Mr. R buy from me?"
is corrct now.
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 263

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somewhere on this forum Ms Deb has said that in a business deal question both 1/7 (significators) and 2/8 (their money) should be looked at. (The original post asked if someone would purchase / publish her book; you could do some digging with Google.) I agree with her. Bonatti when dealing with money and inheritance questions also frequently used the houses that represent the quesited's money. See Liber Astronomiae, Part 4 & On Horary. To him also a planet in a house could co-signify. If you don't buy these though I'd just say I respect that and leave it at that.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AmeliaS wrote:
Somewhere on this forum Ms Deb has said that in a business deal question both 1/7 (significators) and 2/8 (their money) should be looked at. (The original post asked if someone would purchase / publish her book; you could do some digging with Google.) I agree with her. Bonatti when dealing with money and inheritance questions also frequently used the houses that represent the quesited's money. See Liber Astronomiae, Part 4 & On Horary. To him also a planet in a house could co-signify. If you don't buy these though I'd just say I respect that and leave it at that.

Thanks for your respect, Amelia.

Furthermore and for all those who are interested in the theme of re-
ception and at the moment - quasi in parenthesis - cogency of astro-
logical rules: Neither an inheritance question nor the question about
getting money can give arguments for using the second house in a
question about a purchase: That is signified by the lords of the ascen-
dant and the 7th, as I said before, following Lilly and Frawley, for ex-
ample. The reason is that there must be an agreement or contract
between the parties on the price and the commodity at first.
Lilly, CA, p. 376; p. 173
Frawley, Textbook, 1st ed., p. 172
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 263

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me there is no reason to exclude a business deal from what Lilly calls "procure money or substance". (Christian Astrology page 173-174) In fact, I think this is precisely what he means, an exchange of goods and money. The general theme of this chapter devoted to House 2 is questions about making a living. I see what you're trying to get across, but why should we exclude an exchange of money or substance just because it is supposed to be done under some form of agreement?

Almost any business between two people have to be agreed by two people. We look at house 5 as the primary house for pregnancy, not only house 7 of the woman's husband. Anyway. I think I've made my point. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree!

Quote below:

If the Querent shall obtaine the Substance which he demands, or hath lent, or the Goods he hath pawned.

If the demand of the Querent be, Whether or no he shall procure the money or substance from him of whom he intends to demand it? The Lord of the Ascendant and the Moon are his Significators, the Lord of the 2nd House of his substance. The 7th House, and the Lord thereof signify him or her of whom he intends to demand or borrow Money: In proceeding to Judgment, See if the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon be joyned to the Lord of the 8th, who is Lord of the Substance of the party quesited after, or see if either of them joyned, or in aspect to a Planet posited in the 8th; if the Planet in the 8th be a fortunate, or the aspect itself fortunate, he shall obtaine the money desired; or if he would borrow the money required will be lent him:

If he have deposited any Pledge, it will be restored, whether the fortunate Planet in the 8th be received or not; yea, if an infortunate Planet in the 8th, or Lord of the 8th, and receive either the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon, the Querent shall obtaine his desire; but if no reception be, he will hardly or ever procure his demands, and if ever, with so much difficulty and labour, as he would rather wish the thing had been undone. In like manner, if the Lord of the 8th be in the 1st, or in the 2nd, and the Lord of the 2nd receive him, it's probable the businesse will be effected; but is the Lord of the 7th, or of the 8th be in the lst or 2nd, and neither have reception of the Lord of the lst or 2nd House, or of the Moon, it's an argument he shall not have his desire accomplished, but shall receive a deniall or more prejudice in the thing demanded.

If the Lord of the Ascendant and the Moon be joined to a Fortune that has Dignity in the Signe ascending, or Signe intercepted in the Ascendant, the matter will be effected; or if any of them be joyned to an Infortune who hath dignity in the Ascendant, and that Infortune receive the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon, the business will be dispatched:

Or if the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon be joyned to a fortunate Planet, and he well placed either in the 10th or 11th, the matter shall be perfected, though there be no reception:

The Judgments of this Chapter shall have place and prove true, when as the matter in question is amongst ordinary persons, or with such people as with whom there is a community, as Citizens with Citizens, Countrymen with Countrymen, one Tradesman with another; from this Judgment we exempt Kings, Princes, Noblemen and such, who pay Debts slowly, and on whom the Law takes little notice.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 560

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have to keep in mind the question itself (the subject, object or thing sought after).
Should I buy this car or this house from Mister X?
You may well agree (1/7) but if the car is a wreck (3) or the house is a slum (4) or the price is too high (10), not sure that the 1/7 relationship will be enough to close the deal. Your relationship (1) to the person, object or thing is as important in reading the chart.
And since money is the way to transact, 2/8 will be involved.

Buying an object is a 1/2 relationship not a 1/7.
If you buy a dress, it doesn't matter that you fall in love with the seller. You have a hundred stores which may be selling the same article. Most likely other factors will come into play (color, price, availability, shipping etc).
If Mr Seller decides to play a dandrum or sing a serenade, that is secondary to the question.

Lilly in Bloom Smile
_________________
Blessings!
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:

. . . a question about a purchase . . . is signified by the lords of the ascen-
dant and the 7th, as I said before, following Lilly and Frawley, for ex-
ample.
Lilly, CA, p. 376; p. 173
Frawley, Textbook, 1st ed., p. 172


Amelia, you were so kind to give the text to my second quotation of Lilly, CA, p.173 f.

But this is only supporting that first quotation of Lilly, CA, p. 376, containing the following text, that applies to the puchase of things:
"Chapter LIV.
Of Buying and Selling Commodities.
The Buyer is signified by the Lord of the ascendant and the Moon; the Seller by the Lord of the seventh; . . . "

You obviously missed that the text you quoted does not apply to "Buying and Selling Commodities."
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 263

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So your reason is Lilly doesn't repeat 2/8 when he talks about business deals some chapters later. And you think that means that these houses cannot, or should not, be used.

Firstly, I doubt Lilly meant for ALL of his rules to be mutually exclusive.

Secondly, mere logic: a business deal can be 2/8 an exchange of substance and 1/7 a buy and sell of commodities at the same time. Why not? This is just like a stolen book can be a property and also a book.

It is by logic you fail to convince me. The point is there are jolly good reasons for using both sets of rules. Or are you saying that a business deal can never be an exchange of substance and money? Or that an exchange of substance and money can never involve a business deal? Why restrict ourselves this way? Why not both? I don't see the logic here.

In the stolen book case, most of us would probably look at both 2 and 3 then decide to prioritise which: this is merely the choice of the astrologer who erected the chart. Why would anyone have a right to call her wrong?

I am not convinced at all I misread the text. I still think the quote speaks for itself. If I change my mind, I'll let you know. Right now I don't think I have much else to add. Very Happy

Ouranos: I mostly agree with what you said. I would let the chart tell me which houses are emphasised and wouldn't insist on 1/7. Never had a problem judging any business deal chart. Some deals happened alright without 1/7!
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