16
Linchi wrote:
Astrology is a science not a religion.
We must control every assertion and every rule. If we are not allowed to control even not to speak our opinions, then it is a religion.
India's navamsa chart has been one of my primary research areas of study for 45 years. It has worked to perfection across many studies. There are also many published reports by astrologers demonstrating how the navamsa has been applied. Here and there on Skyscript I have posts that include the navamsa such as the comparison of the charts of royals.

But there are no studies (for example) of 100 charts of cancer patients using the navamsa. The zodiac and 12 signs are central in applying the navamsa. This is why the navamsa (9th harmonic) cannot be compared to another technique which uses only the mathematical relationship of planets in higher harmonics apart from the zodiac.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

17
Therese Hamilton wrote:Linchi wrote:
Astrology is a science not a religion.
We must control every assertion and every rule. If we are not allowed to control even not to speak our opinions, then it is a religion.
India's navamsa chart has been one of my primary research areas of study for 45 years. It has worked to perfection across many studies. There are also many published reports by astrologers demonstrating how the navamsa has been applied. Here and there on Skyscript I have posts that include the navamsa such as the comparison of the charts of royals.
I also wrote earlier that if you want to check something, then you need the appropriate equipment that can perform the check. If you don't have the appropriate equipment, then you can check or research for a thousand years. It's no use at all. It was just a waste of time. I am sorry for you that you wasted your time, it is frustrating, I understand that and I feel for you.
But there are no studies (for example) of 100 charts of cancer patients using the navamsa.
I have over 350 cancer examples in my work not 100. I do not need navamsa.
The zodiac and 12 signs are central in applying the navamsa. This is why the navamsa (9th harmonic) cannot be compared to another technique which uses only the mathematical relationship of planets in higher harmonics apart from the zodiac.
You need to have a competence to judge about my system.
From now on I will ignore your posts and not reply to them. Please don't bother.
https://archive.org/details/@cemalcicek

18
the way i see it we are all here to learn from one another..no one knows everything and we need to check our egos at the door...

i think it is fair to challenge anything to do with astrology.. we are working with a symbolic art form.. it is not all to be taken literally or for some to think their form of 'art' is superior to others.. it is just 'different'.. that is my philosophy here....

first off i'd like to address an aspect of this conversation that is being discussed, but from my own perspective... the navamsa chart is arrived at a few different ways in indian astrology - thus one can use different ideas to arrive at 'different' navamsa charts.. it is not purely a 9th harmonic chart... it seems like this is an important point to make based on the level of understanding some do or don't have about this here.. the standard navamsa chart as given in solar fire software is indeed a 9th harmonic chart, but as linchi points out - one can arrive at different navamsa charts depending on different choices of starting points and etc. etc.. this little confusion, might be a big confusion for those who haven't looked into this more closely...

for me it really breaks down to the difference between what these numbers 2 and 3 imply on a symbolic level.... 2 series harmonics are going to be different then 3 series harmonics... what is the nature of the difference?? this is something we can each look into and come to our own individual conclusions on..

i do find linchis work fascinating, but i am unable to confirm or verify his conclusions as i don't have the software to confirm or deny it! but i do believe the principle of manifestation on the material or physical level and its association with the 2 series harmonics important... as someone who was exposed to ebertin and the hamburg school of astrology from an early age, working with the 90 degree wheel, midpoints and etc, makes a huge amount of sense to me.. it seems linchi with the aid of technology has advanced the basic ideas that were developed out of the work of these german astrologers - alfred witte and etc... so, i do want to congratulate linchi for his unique approach and insights that he offers skyscript here.. if linchi opts to not explore of understand more deeply the basis from other aspects of indian astrology, that is up to him.. we can't all know everything...

atlantean - james.. thanks for your reply... i don't have those software programs... the 40 degree aspect and its extensions was first revealed to me in a book back in the 70's r 80s - before all this astro software took off as the novile series aspects... the book was called "" a handbook for the humanistic astrologer'' by michael r meyer - 1974.... i suppose with the advent of greater use of technology and astro software someone came along and gave these aspects a different name...

my first reading on harmonics was john addey and david hamblin.. i see david has a new book out called ''harmonics in practice''.... my understanding of the difference between the 2 series and 3 series harmonics is that one is more directly related to events - the 2 series, whereas the 3 series is more on an inner level of harmony that one might discover that isn't apparent on the outer or physical or material level aspect of our world... i think these religious connotations - the holy trinity, or the concept of how the navamsa chart is considered so important in indian astrology has to do with some deeper resonance that not everyone living in the material world is receptive to perhaps.. i don't actually know and it is just speculation on my part... bottom line the different harmonics represent different realities so to speak, one more obvious and the other not so obvious..

of course encouraging people to be open mind is tricky if some are treating their science as a religion and vice versa... either we remain open minded to discovery, or we keep the door closed on alternative ways of perceiving our reality... the choice is always ours to make... i really don't look at this as an ''either or'' proposition either...

this clash of ideology reminds me of the saturn- uranus square which will come exact in another month or so for the last time! i see so much division connected most obviously to the response people have taken towards covid.. it would be nice if we could not replicate that here in the astrology and try to step outside of ourselves for a moment...

peace and goodwill to you all!

19
Linchi wrote:
I am sorry for you that you wasted your time, it is frustrating, I understand that and I feel for you.
There is no waste of time except in Linchi's perspective. But is sarcasm so necessary? Astrology is so vast that we can't decide something is wrong simply because we haven't explored it. There is room for various perspectives, and there are reasons that each perspective exists.

Perhaps the problem with Indian astrology is the term 'harmonics'. Varga charts are simply degree, minute and second divisions of the zodiac circle, and in fact they are labeled, D2, D3, D9, etc. From Mesopotamian times the zodiac has been broken into smaller segments such as the 12-fold dwad divisions.

Problem solved!! The navamsa and other varga charts aren't harmonics in the mathematical sense. They're simply divisions of the ecliptic/zodiac. I don't think they were ever called harmonics until John Addey's work became well known.

I am laughing!! Of course that is the problem. Varga charts are not harmonics! They are simply 'subtle divisions' as they are commonly termed. India never claimed these divisions were harmonics of any kind.
Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

20
James wrote:
For me it really breaks down to the difference between what these numbers 2 and 3 imply on a symbolic level.... 2 series harmonics are going to be different then 3 series harmonics... what is the nature of the difference?? this is something we can each look into and come to our own individual conclusions on.
This is something that John Addy and David Hamblin have studied and discussed in their work. But this principle doesn't really apply to India's navamsa chart, for example, because all of India's astrology has emphasized concrete events and circumstances. I think in trying to compare the navamsa with any harmonic as understood by Linchi, we're simply speaking two completely different languages. Harmonics are a mathematical construct, and India's varga charts are simply divisions of the ecliptic reconstructed to form charts using the familiar planets and signs of the zodiac. There are no varga charts apart from the signs of the zodiac.

As for John Addey and David Hamblin, that is another area of study or controversy because they both refer to their work as harmonics. This is basically a problem for western astrologers. Unfortunately some software programs have started to refer to Indian varga charts as harmonics.
Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

21
One of the major difference between Micro astrology vs Astrology is in terms of time analysis by dividing 2 factors (planets or Horizon and Meridian) and not in terms of planetary dignities or rasi.
In Indian astrology, a placement in a zodiac sign might be enough to predict an event by its relationship to the whole chart or to one of the 108 navamsas (3 degrees and 20 minutes) in a specific Constellation.

The way I see Linchi using micro astrology is closer to what is called 'vernier scale' than 'time scale'.
Time scale is defined by the convention of days, hours, minutes and seconds.
The Harmonics are closer to the 'vernier scale' but translated in clock time to be understandable.
It is named after Pierre Vernier and is a visual aid to take an accurate measurement reading between two graduation markings on a linear scale by using mechanical interpolation, thereby increasing resolution and reducing measurement uncertainty by using vernier acuity to reduce human estimation error. It was popularised by the French astronomer Jérôme Lalande (1732–1807) through his Traité d'astronomie (2 vols) (1764).
In some languages, the vernier scale is called a nonius (see here the relationship with number 9) after Portuguese mathematician, cosmographer Pedro Nunes (Latin Petrus Nonius, 1502–1578). In English, this term was used until the end of the 18th century. Nonius now refers to an earlier instrument that Nunes developed.

In 2020, scientists have measured the shortest unit of time ever: the time it takes a light particle to cross a hydrogen molecule.
That time, for the record, is 247 zeptoseconds. A zeptosecond is a trillionth of a billionth of a second, or a decimal point followed by 20 zeroes and a 1. That opens up the door to be able to measure an event with a specific Harmonic.
Saibal Ghosh explains that "Micro astrology basic for all contemporary events it is quite possible to know the nature of event of any particular moment with several co-ordinates known as time vernier scale."
In micro astrology a moment is measured by different kinds of time vernier scales, which are very unusual than clock time measuring system. We measure time by clock, micro astrology measure nature of events by different time vernier scales.

The magic of Uranian astrology was that by observations Alfred Witte was able to say for example that AS/SA, MC/SA or NO/SA meant 'separation from the place or others', or saying 'Goodbye'. And if you watch carefully when you say goodbye to someone, you will find a correlation between these pairs and one of your natal placement in relationship to the 4 cardinal points (90 degrees) or 8 or 16.

This being said, I see the work of Linchi as an introduction to the core of things and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Do not feel threatened Linchi if we criticize you sometimes. Open up your heart and welcome the students of astrology that we all are. And keep up the great work.

Blessings,
Ouranos

"If God has allowed human beings to take stock of their life before their death in the form of a succession of powerful memories, it is above all to give them their correct proportions in the universe, it is to demonstrate that the essential of their life is contained in a fraction of a second." (Nelly Arcand)
Last edited by Ouranos on Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Blessings!

22
therese,

one area i have a direct relationship with is music... i could simplify it as melody, harmony and rhythm.... when we look at music we can see how different cultures emphasize different aspects of music, but they all share a connection to one another as well as generally having these 3 aspects of music - melody, harmony and rhythm... obviously indian music is different then western music, but the idea of harmonics is part ( not all ) the basis for the varga charts used in indian astrology.. if you see this differently - fill your boots.. cheers...

23
James,

And I thought I was having an Aha!! moment! But what is important, I think, is to recognize that there is a critical difference in the fundamental premise of Linchi's concept of harmonics and the 'subtle divisions' of India's varga charts. They are basically separate universes. Our failure to recognize this has led to misunderstandings, defensive reactions (even insults) and unnecessary blame and conflicts.

There may be harmonic overtones to India's varga charts, but that is a completely different understanding of harmonics than the basis of Linchi's methods. Linchi's '9th harmonic' has nothing in common with India's navamsa chart. (And, of course perceiving the navamsa as a 'suble division' of the zodiac means that there can be an many navamsa charts as astrologers wish to invent.) But it is wrong to say that Linchi's 9th harmonic negates the utility and truth of India's navamsa chart. They are completely different entities.
Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

25
Atlantean wrote (copied from another thread):
I read through [this] whole thread...I had even taken part in the thread. While linchi is direct in his expression of what he has researched, I don't see anything exceptionally flame-worthy in his comments. His "put up or shut up" stance might set some on edge, but at heart he is researching and presenting and though his style might rub a few the wrong way, it's a small price to pay related to the learning possibility.
Linchi wrote:
Conclusion : If it is true, which seems to be the case, that harmonic 9 is out of question, that is wrong, then Navamsa (D-9) would be wrong and inevitably Vargottoma would be wrong in some persons (for example Joe Biden).

The correct rule would be: If a planet in radix and in harmonic 8 is the same zodiac sign, it is Vargottama.

If my assumption is correct, then it would be disastrous for Vedic astrology. Therefore, one should not take everything for granted and always check if one can.
Ouranos wrote:
In your system yes as you demonstrate with your examples but not in the way the system is used by Indian astrologers.
You are trying to fit 2 pieces of a puzzle which have different premises (etc.)
Atlantean, I think you missed the point of this entire thread. Linchi is presenting his view of why the 8th harmonic works while the 9th harmonic is not accurate. But his analysis has nothing to do with India’s navamsa chart. When Ouranos pointed this out, he was summarily shut down as not being qualified to question Linchi’s work.

Reading to the end of this thread it is apparent that Linchi did not understand the structure, calculation or use of the navamsa chart. Thus, no matter how logical his 8th-9th harmonic analysis is, it has no relationship to the way India calculates and reads the navamsa (a varga chart) as such. Ouranos pointed out some of the differences, and I tried to explain the two different ‘harmonic’ approaches toward the end of the thread.

Therese wrote:
But what is important, I think, is to recognize that there is a critical difference in the fundamental premise of Linchi's concept of harmonics and the 'subtle divisions' of India's varga charts. They are basically separate universes. Our failure to recognize this has led to misunderstandings, defensive reactions (even insults) and unnecessary blame and conflicts.

There may be harmonic overtones to India's varga charts, but that is a completely different understanding of harmonics than the basis of Linchi's methods. Linchi's '9th harmonic' has nothing in common with India's navamsa chart. (And, of course perceiving the navamsa as a 'suble division' of the zodiac means that there can be an many navamsa charts as astrologers wish to invent.) But it is wrong to say that Linchi's 9th harmonic negates the utility and truth of India's navamsa chart. They are completely different entities.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

26
Therese Hamilton wrote: Reading to the end of this thread it is apparent that Linchi did not understand the structure, calculation or use of the navamsa chart.
You have not understood how to calculate Navamsa.
Navamsa D9 and Harmonic 9th are using different calculation formula, but they both will give you the same result.
https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/navam ... calculator

The navamsa and Harmonic 9 calculations are both the same. If both Zet and Jagannatha Hora images are compared to the images below for Joe Biden, you can see that the calculations are the same. The difference of 4-5 minutes is due to the software calculations. My point was that Indian astrologers give a lot of importance to navamsa, which I think is exaggerated and not correct.

Image


Image

Thus, no matter how logical his 8th-9th harmonic analysis is, it has no relationship to the way India calculates and reads the navamsa (a varga chart) as such.

I have shown above that the calculations are the same. And you can't tell me how to read it. Otherwise we would have to interrupt all research and continue as we have been doing up to now.
Ouranos pointed out some of the differences, and I tried to explain the two different ‘harmonic’ approaches toward the end of the thread.
Ouranos wrote:
If you focus on your system (which works perfectly by its own!) without trying to incorporate the different premises of other systems you will demonstrate a lot more.
Where does he get the right to tell me what I should or should not do astrologically ?
Who is he ?
https://archive.org/details/@cemalcicek

27
linchi wrote:Ouranos wrote:
If you focus on your system (which works perfectly by its own!) without trying to incorporate the different premises of other systems you will demonstrate a lot more.
Where does he get the right to tell me what I should or should not do astrologically ?
Who is he ?
Nobody is telling you what to do, so there is no need to bristle. Ouranos was simply expressing his point of view, which you are free to ignore.

It is true that the Indian nav??ṃśa is one of the zodiacal divisions which agree in point of calculation with the corresponding harmonic chart, but I believe that what others have tried to point out is that it still differs conceptually from harmonic theory. The nav??ṃśas are simply conceived as subdivisions within a zodiacal sign.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/