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Ouranos wrote:
If the Seven Dwarfs are represented by the seven major TNOs (as Astrolog software designer and fellow Skyscribe Walter Pullen says), then it stands to reason that Snow White would correspond to Pluto!
You are opening an interesting mousetrap Michael.
Don't forget there is also Trans-Pluto, that is after the surgery!

:D
Just opening a can of dwarfs! :lol:
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152
Following up on the Sun square Eris arrests, chief among these was Oath Keepers founder Elmer "Stewart" Rhodes. I haven't been able to find a birthdate (pls let me know if you do!), but arrested 1/13/22.

Asteroids Elmer and d'Arrest exactly conjunct at 28 Virgo, both stationing retrograde on the 17th, opposed asteroid Rhoads 29 Pisces. Stations indicate a literal or metaphoric "change of direction". Sun 23 Cap conjunct Nemesis (undoing) 22 Cap and Pluto (crime) 26 Cap, squared Eris 23 Aries with asteroids Stuart 16 Aries and Rhodesia 18 Aries. Asteroid Rhoda exactly conjunct Uranus (rebellion, insurrection) 10 Taurus, opposed asteroid Rhodescolossus with House (of Representatives) at 8 and 9 Scorpio, t-squared Saturn (arrests, detentions) 13 Aquarius with asteroid Themis (Greek goddess of justice) 11 Aquarius, Mercury (news) 10 Aquarius.

Not bad. :D

btw, Nemesis 22 Cap is same degree as Rhoads from 1/6/21 insurrection, when it conjoined the Sun and exactly opposed House.

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In Greek mythology, Horkos is the personification of an oath and the avenger of perjury. Also known as the Oath-Keeper. He is the son of Eris, the goddess of discord and strife.

I hear Sly & The Family Stone... ♪ ♫ It's a family affair...♪ ♫
Blessings!

154
waybread wrote:Michael, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs were probably the moon and the Pleiades (today nicknamed the Seven Sisters), but that's another thread topic. Their heathen meaning is esoteric.
There may be no historical connection between the fairy tale of Snow White and the myth of Proserpina and Pluto, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that both are revolving around the same archetypal themes. The parallels include:
  • Orphaned Snow White is "abducted" by a hunter (supposed to kill the unsuspecting maiden) into the forest, where she ends up in the cave of the Seven Dwarfs returning from their work in a mine - in other words, in a set of circumstances as chthonic as it gets! Whereas Proserpina is abducted by her would-be husband Pluto into the underworld/world of the dead.
  • We can only guess how exactly Proserpina and Pluto were passing the time - or Snow White with her Seven Dwarfs, for that matter! As either tale would probably remain silent about any details in this regard. Let's just remember that anything should be expected to happen when an adolescent and attractive girl is away from home and (not quite) on her own! ;) :lol:
  • Upon learning that Snow White is still alive, the power-hungry and jealous evil queen/witch (who, no doubt, must have been a Scorpio) tricks her into eating a poisonous apple, making her temporarily go into a deep sleep (a coma?). While Pluto, forced by Proserpina's somewhat possessive mother (who may have been a Scorpio too) to let Proserpina return to the world of the living, kindly offers her some pomegranate seeds - apparently to still her hunger, yet knowing full well that this act would forever bind her to the world of the dead.
  • However, both characters return to the light of day eventually and lived happily ever after. :D (Or so we hope for them.)
  • And again, although contextual details are quite different, to be sure, both stories have to do with narcissism - Snow White's evil stepmother frequently gazing into her "flattering" magic mirror, Proserpina being trapped while admiring the beauty of a narcissus flower.
  • On top of that, the omniscient mirror lets the evil stepmother know that Snow White is still alive and having a good time with the Seven Dwarfs, whereas the all-seeing Sun informs Ceres that her daughter is still alive (or dead?) in the underworld.
Now if we further take into account the Seven Dwarfs' attribution to the seven major TNOs, i.e. dwarf planets (besides their more traditional assignment to the Pleiades - both views can be "correct") - that's just a bit too many coincidences for regarding the parallels between the two tales as coincidental!
Alex, of course I take your points. Of course, people have to be selected for careers included in the terms of the the Nobel prize, but there is perhaps a rather scary side to these asteroid "hits." The implication is that a supremely qualified individual might not be awarded a Nobel Prize if the asteroids did not align.
Well, according to our host Anna (whose respective views I actually don't entirely dismiss - but I will come back to that in more detail in my upcoming reply to her), celestial bodies don't really cause things to happen - rather, they only indicate what is happening anyway (for whatever "mundane" reasons).

But yes, sometimes we are left waiting for a desired thing to happen until the pertinent celestial bodies would align accordingly. :-?
I had a fair bit of interest in one of the 2018 Nobel Laureates in physics: Donna Strickland. She was only the third woman in the prize's history to be honored for her work in physics. b. May 27, 1959 in Guelph, Ontario, Canada. I don't have a birth time. She was notified of the prize on October 2, 2018, presumably in Waterloo, Ontario, and accepted it on December 10 in Stockholm, Sweden.

Strickland was a mere Associate Professor at the University of Waterloo in Ontario when she was notified of the award. One wonders what in heaven's name was going on there that she was not promoted to full professor rank previously. Why didn't her chair and dean do a better job of mentoring and supporting her? No one thought to give Strickland a Wikipedia page prior to her Nobel prize, either, and she seems to have been too modest to input one herself.

This didn't prevent the University of Waterloo from claiming all kinds of credit for Strickland's achievement and fast-tracking her promotion at that point.

Anyway, Strickland shared the prize with physicists Arthur Ashkin and Gerard Mourou, her former Ph. D. supervisor.

I found the following asteroids at Astrodienst: Nobel, Arthur, Ashkin, Gerarda, and Waterloo. I use pretty tight orbs. The moon without a correct birth time could move 6 degrees either way, so I'd use it with real caution.

Natally Strickland's NN conjuncted asteroid Waterloo.

I would classify transiting asteroid Nobel as a near miss for October 2, but it was within a degree of Strickland's Uranus on December 10 (uncorrected for Stockholm.) Uranus is the modern ruler of science .On Dec. 10 asteroid Aruthur hit Strickland's natal Nobel. The transiting sun conjuncted transiting asteroid Waterloo.

Between October 2 and December 10, Strickland experienced her 2nd Saturn return, as well as a Jupiter return.

There is more there. I hope you will see what you can make of it.
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    155
    annadeer wrote:
    alex miller wrote:Waybread, I gave up trying to figure out how this works years ago. It just does. To me, it's indisputable. I don't understand how gravity works, either. Science has focused on things like that, but not on things like astrology - if they did, maybe we'd have an answer.

    As to the mechanics of it, as in your query about why some get the Nobel and others don't, the first factor to consider is opportunity. Obviously, not everyone is going to get a Nobel prize, if your pool is all of humanity. Similarly if Mars and Pluto come together, you won't contract prostate cancer, if you're female. You have to be 'in the running' for the manifestation, for it to occur.

    If by 'everyone' and the Nobel, you just meant 'all physicists', then I liken it to a lock. A lock has tumblers, and all of them have to be triggered before the lock opens and you get what's inside. So applicable natal planetary placements are one tumbler, planetary transits are another; natal asteroid placements are another, as are transiting asteroids. You don't get the Nobel prize unless all the tumblers are triggered at once, and the lock opens.

    To me, asteroids go a long way to explaining why planetary outcomes can be so diverse among those similarly affected. They "fine tune" the manifestation from a general arena to one more specific. The thing with planets, however, is that they generally govern a lot more areas than smaller bodies, so if you don't get a sibling or neighbor manifestation from a Mercury hit, you'll get a car/transportation one, or a pet one, or an educational one, etc.

    Asteroids don't stretch that far, but to continue to use your Nobel example, we might find that it broadens to 'awards' in general. Maybe someone with a strong Nobel wins a different kind of award, on a much less publicized level. Doesn't have to be in a Nobel category, could be any recognition for excellence or peak performance. It can also indicate interaction with someone of the name Nobel, or something similar. It might refer to acting in a "noble" manner. Does the word mean anything in another language? If so, that's another area to consider. Maybe all you get, depending on your preparedness, is hearing a Jeopardy! question about a Nobel winner!

    Not everyone who gets a planetary hit will have a memorable manifestation, either. It just doesn't work that way. But don't ask me why. :D
    Very eloquently said Alex And happy to show up in your chart!

    I wish science would study the phenomenon of asteroids in horoscopes, it's falsifiable and quantifiable. Also, had quantum theories been around at the end of the 17th century, when astrology was dumped by scientists as a pseudoscience, quantum theories would have been dumped too, for they did/do not comply with the scientific criteria of that time either.
    Yes! Here's the thing... Humans are prone to only perceive what fits in with their assumptions regarding what is possible and automatically ignore any facts that would challenge those assumptions. This is true even (or shall I say, especially?) for hard core rationalists.
    Waybread, regarding your statement 'but there is perhaps a rather scary side to these asteroid "hits." The implication is that a supremely qualified individual might not be awarded a Nobel Prize if the asteroids did not align.'

    FIrst, personally I do not believe someone gets or doesn't get a Nobel prize because of the way the stars and/or asteroids are aligned -- the stars and/or asteroids just reflect whether he/she does or doesn't. (I know Michael will disagree with me on this :lol: )
    Actually, I do consider this a valid way of looking at how astrology works. But then, we should perhaps try and explore what is underlying that kind of synchronicity. Celestial bodies and human beings (and anything else, for that matter) are interconnected in some mysterious ways. Some kind of mutual resonance may come into play here...

    The ancients believed that "rays" emanated by every entity (including stars, humans, and cockroaches) would make for aforesaid connection. And it was not looked at as a one-way street by any means! For instance, the theory about how (astral) magic worked assumed that the sorcerer's intention, transmitted to the corresponding celestial body, would cause the latter to manifest the desired thing. (See Al-Kindi's On the Stellar Rays.

    Since for both you and me, Dane Rudhyar has been instrumental in shaping our outlook on astrology, relevant passages from his books may provide a useful basis for this discussion. Here are a few that I find significant:
    Still another type [of astrology] —very little developed as yet—will be of a more occult character and deal with vast planetary factors, with the cosmic (spiritual and creative) influence of stars and Divine Hierarchies,—or else with occultly perceived symbols revealing the creative significance of every astrological factor.
    From The Astrology of Personality, chapter 5

    The Ptolemaic zodiac has been already described as a belt of creative fire surrounding the Earth, and focalized upon the Earth mainly by the Sun and secondarily by the planets. The center of this belt of fire is the ecliptic, the apparent path of the Sun. The signs of the zodiac are identified with the
    constellations (at least in pre-Ptolemaic astrology) and as well with celestial
    hierarchies of Cosmic Builders. These hierarchies constitute collectively the
    Universal Mind, the operative creative energy of the macrocosm. The zodiac as a whole is a vast cosmic lens focalizing upon the earth the combined powers of the hierarchies, thereby making of the Earth as a whole, or of Man-in-the-whole, a microcosm.
    From The Astrology of Personality, chapter 7

    This is made even more evident by the traditional projection of the zodiac upon the human body—or, which is less usual but better, the human “aura??? or auric egg. Here we see a particular sign of the zodiac assigned to every part of the body. Indeed, the zodiac is then a pattern of organic interchange, a charting of the circuits of the life-force (Sun) as it energizes the various parts and organs of the integrated collectivity of cells—which we call a body. The zodiac is thus seen as the ideal pattern and the formative mould of every “body.???
    From The Astrology of Personality, chapter 7


    Now I am not sure where Rudhyar may have been talking about the correspondence between us and the "stars" as a parallelism, even though I would not rule out the possibility that he did. Yes, he did mention "stellar influences" on many occasions, but then again, he was a syncretistic thinker for sure. And we syncretists are much more interested in reconciling seemingly exclusive perspectives with each other than in keeping them apart. :)

    If you have any references available to you, I would really like to see them.
    Secondly, the same applies to any horoscope elements. You could say it's equally scary that someone has such and such unchangeable personality traits and life trajectory because of the way the planets were aligned (again, personally I don't believe there's a causal relation) -- the principle of asteroids giving info about a person's life is no different than the principle of other elements of the horoscope giving info about (or, influencing, if that's what you believe) someone's personality and life.

    For Donna Strickland's chart, not knowing the time of birth makes it more difficult to say something. Maybe Nobel went over her Ascendant or POF when she got the Nobel prize, or maybe Uranus is the ruler of her Ascendant, or maybe Nobel was conjunct POF or MC in her solar or lunar return -- so many different possible indicators that get lost if one doesn't have the birth time.
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    156
    Michael, were you aware that the name "Snow White" was provisionally applied to a TNO/SDO originally designated 2007 OR10? It was officially named Gonggong in 2019.

    From the Wikipedia entry:

    "Before its official naming, Gonggong was the largest known unnamed object in the Solar System.[23] Initially after the discovery of Gonggong, Brown nicknamed the object "Snow White" for its presumed white color based on his assumption that it may be a member of the icy Haumea collisional family.[24][25] The nickname also fitted because, by that time, Brown's team had discovered seven other large trans-Neptunian objects which were collectively referred to as the "seven dwarfs":[26] Quaoar in 2002, Sedna in 2003, Haumea, Salacia and Orcus in 2004, and Makemake and Eris in 2005. However, Gonggong turned out to be very red in color, comparable to Quaoar, so the nickname was dropped.[24][18] On 2 November 2009, two years after its discovery, the Minor Planet Center assigned the minor planet number 225088 to Gonggong.[21]

    "In 2019, the discoverers of Gonggong hosted an online poll for the general public to choose between three possible names: Gonggong (Chinese), Holle (German), and Vili (Norse). These were selected by the discoverers in accordance with the International Astronomical Union's (IAU's) minor planet naming criteria, which state that objects with orbits like that of Gonggong must be given names related to mythological figures that are associated with creation.[28][29] The three options were chosen because they were associated with water, ice, snow, and the color red—all characteristics of Gonggong—and because they had associated figures that could later provide a name for Gonggong's satellite.[30] The name for Gonggong's satellite was not chosen by the hosts of the naming poll, as this privilege is reserved for its discoverers.[28][22]

    "Having gained 46 percent of the 280,000 votes, on 29 May 2019, the discovery team announced Gonggong as the winning name.[22] The name was proposed to the IAU's Committee on Small Body Nomenclature (CSBN), which is responsible for naming minor planets.[22] The name was accepted by the CSBN and was announced by the Minor Planet Center on 5 February 2020."

    157
    Really interesting, Alex!

    I hope it's appropriate to discuss astrological Ceres here. I've studied Ceres off and on for some years and so far, I still think it behaves like an asteroid (unlike now-dwarf planet Pluto, which behaves like a modern planet.) I'm involved in a current thread on Ceres at Astrodienst.

    Michael, I think the parallels you drew between the Snow White fairy tale and the myths of Demeter/Ceres and Persephone/Proserpina are fascinating. There are different versions of the Ceres-Prosperina myth, but the main ones I'm aware of are the Homeric "Hymn to Demeter" and in Ovid's Metamorphoses. (Both of them are available in English on line; probably also in German.)

    The Ovid version is instructive because it has a parallel for the evil queen in the figure of Venus. When the story opens, Venus announces her dominion over lovers. Singles are an anathema to her. Venus gets Cupid to hit Pluto with an arrow, he then sees Proserpina, and the rest is, if not history, mythology.

    We can imagine some kind of story that pits the moon against Venus for a beauty contest.

    We know mythical Venus to be jealous, as in the beauty contest between Venus, Juno, and Minerva (Athena) that starts the Trojan War. (Astrological Venus in Scorpio is a typical indicator of jealousy.(

    Joseph Campbell talks about magical helpers in the hero's journey. In Snow White, we have the huntsman and the Seven Dwarves. There are several in the ancient myth, notably the goddess Hecate.

    The red apple and pomegranate outwardly look similar. Then the forbidden fruit of Genesis was supposedly an apple (it doesn't say,) and there are sexual connotations with both fruits. (Think of the red juice of the pomegranate as the ruptured hymen.)

    I'd vote for the Pleiades as symbolizing the seven Dwarves because this asterism was such an important time-keeper in Antiquity (cf. Hesiod, Works and Days.) There is some thought that the Pleiades are depicted with Taurus in the Paleolithic cave paintings of Lascaux. It has more than seven visible stars, but seven were believed to be the main ones.

    Today we don't make fun of people of short stature. It is normally caused by a genetic disorder. In any case, the dwarves of fairy tales and Germanic myth were magical beings and miners who, like Pluto, brought forth the riches buried within the earth.

    159
    Waybread: "I don't think those major TNOs will stop at seven. Probably there are more out there."

    Well, you're certainly right about that! Currently Serennu's chart program automatically generates 5 Dwarf planets, 28 TNOs and 4 SDOs. I guess we can quibble over the definition of "major", but there's lots more out there, for sure. And officially just four bodies actually classed as dwarves beyond Neptune (plus Ceres, of course) - I suspect that Sneezy, Sleepy and Grumpy are yet to be found.

    Most I don't use - they are from non-Western traditions which have very little, if any, information currently available about their myth, so there's no real jumping-off point for interpretation. Often from oral traditions of indigenous peoples, so much has been lost when "civilization" came to town.

    160
    Michael Sternbach wrote:
    Actually, I do consider this a valid way of looking at how astrology works. But then, we should perhaps try and explore what is underlying that kind of synchronicity. Celestial bodies and human beings (and anything else, for that matter) are interconnected in some mysterious ways. Some kind of mutual resonance may come into play here...

    The ancients believed that "rays" emanated by every entity (including stars, humans, and cockroaches) would make for aforesaid connection. And it was not looked at as a one-way street by any means! For instance, the theory about how (astral) magic worked assumed that the sorcerer's intention, transmitted to the corresponding celestial body, would cause the latter to manifest the desired thing. (See Al-Kindi's On the Stellar Rays.

    Since for both you and me, Dane Rudhyar has been instrumental in shaping our outlook on astrology, relevant passages from his books may provide a useful basis for this discussion. Here are a few that I find significant:
    Still another type [of astrology] —very little developed as yet—will be of a more occult character and deal with vast planetary factors, with the cosmic (spiritual and creative) influence of stars and Divine Hierarchies,—or else with occultly perceived symbols revealing the creative significance of every astrological factor.
    From The Astrology of Personality, chapter 5

    The Ptolemaic zodiac has been already described as a belt of creative fire surrounding the Earth, and focalized upon the Earth mainly by the Sun and secondarily by the planets. The center of this belt of fire is the ecliptic, the apparent path of the Sun. The signs of the zodiac are identified with the
    constellations (at least in pre-Ptolemaic astrology) and as well with celestial
    hierarchies of Cosmic Builders. These hierarchies constitute collectively the
    Universal Mind, the operative creative energy of the macrocosm. The zodiac as a whole is a vast cosmic lens focalizing upon the earth the combined powers of the hierarchies, thereby making of the Earth as a whole, or of Man-in-the-whole, a microcosm.
    From The Astrology of Personality, chapter 7

    This is made even more evident by the traditional projection of the zodiac upon the human body—or, which is less usual but better, the human “aura??? or auric egg. Here we see a particular sign of the zodiac assigned to every part of the body. Indeed, the zodiac is then a pattern of organic interchange, a charting of the circuits of the life-force (Sun) as it energizes the various parts and organs of the integrated collectivity of cells—which we call a body. The zodiac is thus seen as the ideal pattern and the formative mould of every “body.???
    From The Astrology of Personality, chapter 7


    Now I am not sure where Rudhyar may have been talking about the correspondence between us and the "stars" as a parallelism, even though I would not rule out the possibility that he did. Yes, he did mention "stellar influences" on many occasions, but then again, he was a syncretistic thinker for sure. And we syncretists are much more interested in reconciling seemingly exclusive perspectives with each other than in keeping them apart. :)

    If you have any references available to you, I would really like to see them.
    [/quote]

    Michael, thank you so much for sharing your insights. I enjoy reading them, but unfortunately I am not one to be able to give any analytical/theoretical feedback. I am just the one who collects data and is in awe.

    I haven't read Rudhyar in over two decades, but his idea that the stars don't influence us, just give info, always stayed with me, and in the light of the myriad of asteroids popping up at points that do not even materially exists, it just keeps making sense to me.

    It remains my hope that scientists and /or astrologers with more analytical capacities than me at some point in a future not so far away will explain what is underlying that kind of synchronicity! How fantastic would that be!

    Again, thank you, and again sorry if I disappoint you, but I can' t give any useful intellectual reply. Looking forward to reading more of your insights and ideas -- and i will keep sharing my findings, that's all i can do! And I'm definitely going to read up on Alkindi, whom I had never heard of! :)

    161
    alex miller wrote:Waybread: "I don't think those major TNOs will stop at seven. Probably there are more out there."

    Well, you're certainly right about that! Currently Serennu's chart program automatically generates 5 Dwarf planets, 28 TNOs and 4 SDOs. I guess we can quibble over the definition of "major", but there's lots more out there, for sure. And officially just four bodies actually classed as dwarves beyond Neptune (plus Ceres, of course) - I suspect that Sneezy, Sleepy and Grumpy are yet to be found.

    Most I don't use - they are from non-Western traditions which have very little, if any, information currently available about their myth, so there's no real jumping-off point for interpretation. Often from oral traditions of indigenous peoples, so much has been lost when "civilization" came to town.
    Hi Alex, I don't know where or how you draw the line between TNO dwarf planets and asteroids, but there is a fair bit of information, if disparate, on mythological Sedna, and some info on astrological and astronomical Sedna. I started a thread on Sedna at Astrodienst, now in its 10th page.
    https://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1637034671

    One might argue pro or con about the value of mythology in astrology but since so many of the asteroids have a story to tell, I think it's worth reading these stories in the original, allowing for English translation. Arctic anthropology is a big field, so a fair bit is known about Sedna in cultural and environmental context. There is a big issue of cultural appropriation, however.

    162
    Waybread, the line is an easy one to see between asteroids and TNOS. Like all astro-realty, it's about location, location, location. Asteroids are bodies between Mars and Jupiter; TNOS are bodies past Neptune.

    As for the line between 'regular' TNOs and Dwarf planets, that's above my pay grade; astronomers decide which to designate as dwarves.

    And I do use Sedna, frequently. She has a great, full, rich myth, and there's a lot that can be gleaned from it. There are perhaps a dozen of these bodies which I use, some more than others, so roughly a third of the 30-odd named points in that class.

    But some, like Mbabamwanawaresa (say that five times fast - or even once, slow!) or Leleakuhonua (a bit more euphonious) have virtually no meat on their mythic bones. You might get a line here or there.

    While I don't assert that these points would only resonate to a mythic underpinning, it's generally a good place to start, and broaden from there.
    Otherwise, it's just a shot in the dark - where would you even begin to understand it, solely from observation? I'm not that Chaldean. :lol: