z-analogue charts in solfire software and etc

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ouranos // steve - see lower down

ouranos-

thanks for the explanation of the z-analogue diurnal arc chart... i seem to recall martin mentioning something like what you quote below... maybe martin could chime in on these different approachs - placidus mundoscope, verses campanus and etc... it sounds like it is another variation on house systems, but applied via mundane aspects... i would have to say this is one area of astrology where i am super weak! i also have morinus and was using that software when working thru martins books on primary directions... i have mostly been unhappy, or unsuccessful working with primary directions.. i am either not experienced enough in primary directions, or not much shows up for me when using them... martin presents a convincing case for their use, but i have been unable to either appreciate or witness it myself first hand...

perhaps you've had more experience using these different systems and would like to comment?

cheers
james

steve

do you know if jim eshelman states anywhere exactly what those mundane charts he is using are based on? in the link you shared, i am not seeing it.. maybe i missed it.. here is the link again - https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4540
as i said in linchis thread - it seems like i can recreate them using the z-analogue prime vertical option in solfire 9..

thanks
james


Ouranos wrote:
Ouranos, what astrological program do you use?
SolarFire 9 like what James mentions except I use Z-Analogue Diurn Arc which corresponds to Placidus Mundascope which falls within 1 degree to Topocentric
Talking about Sidereal, Martin Gansten in his book on Primary Directions says he uses Mundane conjunctions and oppositions and forget about sextiles, squares and trines. Giuseppe Bezza also showed that parallels of declinations are worth looking at. And I would add that parallels are similar to midpoints when equidistant from each other.

Also
Morinus 8.1.0 and Planetdance

I have to admit that I have not reached a final conclusion on the best system, partly due to not being able to find the right program Every program gives you a partial solution. I know the program Aureas is suppose to be one largely used in Europe with good feedback from users.
It is a work in progress....

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Re: "...I have mostly been unhappy, or unsuccessful working with primary directions.. I am either not experienced enough in primary directions, or not much shows up for me when using them..."

That was exactly my experience, no matter which system I tested.

Ten or more years ago, I came across Isaac Starkman's posts (showing Topocentric Primary Directions) on TylForum and there were so many examples of "properly spelled" (ie. astrologically correct) aspects to events that I was floored.

Here are examples, from both my Natal and Epoch charts. (average orb less than 0° 4' of arc)
Image


Especially interesting to me, is that when my Ascendant (by Primary Direction) came to my Node, I married an "ersatz Mother." When it moved further along and came to my Venus (exactly), I married my "true Wife" and have been married to her for 21 years now.

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thanks atlantean!

i do recall isaac starkman commenting on this on noel tyls site and know that both you and he are adherents to alexandar marrs work..i haven't worked with topocentric houses and etc, and what i have read on it, i am not convinced, but i appreciate your personal discoveries and viewpoint on this james!

i try to keep an open mind... we are all interested in learning more on a topic dear to our hearts - astrology... i am happy you are posting here at skyscript and hope to learn something from you too! cheers james

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You're welcome.... thanks for the nice comment, much appreciated.

I try to learn all I can, and I see you are the same way. (as many of us are)

Good luck in the search!

Maybe if we rectified your chart and then looked at YOUR Topocentric Primary Directions at events, it'd be more convincing...

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As stated on Matrix Software dictionary, Topocentric House System is
"A 20th-century house system derived by Argentinean astrologers Vendel Polish and Nelson Page. It is topocentric as opposed to geocentric, i.e. the birthplace is kept on the surface of the Earth, rather than being projected to the center of the Earth. It was formulated after laborious empirical testing with primary directions that indicated the positions of the house cusps. Its house cusps are within a degree of Placidian cusps (not including extreme latitudes over 56°), although the two systems have completely different mathematical premises.
The celestial equator is divided into 12 equal parts from a cone of rotation. The resultant ascensional circles are then projected onto the ecliptic to obtain the degrees of longitude of the house cusps."

Atlantean: You have several valid testimonies here! Thank you for sharing!
James:
PDs are like the 'trigger' to Profections, Solar returns and transits in relationship to your natal.
I did a post about a year ago on Joe Biden's Profections for 2020-2021... without including the PDs.
By Profection he was Gemini (Mercury) and Mercury in his Solar return was conjunct his natal Mars conjunct SR ASC. in the Profected 6th/natal 12th (Whole sign ASC). Albeit, his natal Mars in Scorpio was strong by Rulership and Sect.
My assumption was that the 3 retrogrades periods of transiting Mercury would be periods to watch for his health.
- The first one, he broke his foot while playing with one of his dog. Can't remember if it was Champ or Major. And he faced the attack to the Capitol.
- The 2nd one, there were rumors that doctors did extensive tests on his mental health because he showed signs of forgetting things and not 'being present' during press conferences.
- The 3rd one is when the Government was on the verge of a shutdown and his meeting with Putin.
I am not sure if his birth time is exact or not but obviously the trigger of PDs was missing here preventing a more serous scenario.
I have not looked at his chart in detail this year but his SR shows an Eclipse FM (not a good sign healthwise! when you are in a Cancer Profected Year) and a Mars return.

As for House systems, each can have a validity depending what you are looking at. They range from Ecliptic, Space or Time Systems. They can be also be looked at in terms of Quadrant or non-Quadrant systems.
My preference goes to the Time Systems like Placidus, Topocentric or Alcabitius because they have showed up consistently to be more accurate when timing events. I am still questioning why Horary astrologers keep using Regiomontanus (a Space System). No wonder we are fighting with timing horary answers.

This is just my appreciation here. Anyone can disagree with me or have better answers. Be doubtful and find what works for you, keeping in mind that the opposite is true as well, it's just the other side of the same coin.

Ouranos
Blessings!

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You're welcome...

Re: Topocentric House System

The most important point about the system is what you wrote, "It was formulated after laborious empirical testing with primary directions that indicated the positions of the house cusps." ie. they didn't have any preconceived notions and simply took well-timed birthcharts and said, okay, at this event there should be this cusp activated and THEN THEY SAW WHERE THAT WAS AND THEN DEVELOPED THE HOUSE SYSTEM TO MATCH WHAT THEY FOUND. ie. pure science and no pre-made philosophical or imagined spherical trigonometry concepts

From studying primary directions in hundreds of charts for thousands of events, I can only say that Topocentric is the only house system that keeps the maturing primary directions to the related house cusps within the normally allowable orb. (< 0° 6' for all aspects except conj/opp, and < 0° 11' for those)

mundane aspects

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James asked:
Steve, do you know if jim eshelman states anywhere exactly what those mundane charts he is using are based on? in the link you shared, i am not seeing it.. maybe i missed it.. here is the link again - https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4540
Not sure James. All I know is Jim said he was getting solid results looking at mundane aspects. I then started looking at them myself and soon discovered they were telling me important additional info. Also important info with certain mundane charts. I will try to offer us some examples for possible further discussions. And please, anyone offer their examples and experiences with mundane aspects with their methodologies.
James wrote:
as i said in linchis thread - it seems like i can recreate them using the z-analogue prime vertical option in solfire 9..
Yes James, this is exactly the way I view the mundane aspects, paying very close attention to any partile mundane aspects because I am a big believer that “Partile Aspects Reign Supreme???. But, I probably miss other important stuff by not looking at wider orbs with mundane aspects.

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Atlantean wrote:they didn't have any preconceived notions and simply took well-timed birthcharts and said, okay, at this event there should be this cusp activated and THEN THEY SAW WHERE THAT WAS AND THEN DEVELOPED THE HOUSE SYSTEM TO MATCH WHAT THEY FOUND. ie. pure science and no pre-made philosophical or imagined spherical trigonometry concepts
I don't want to start a war here, but as a historian, I have to say that this is essentially a piece of modern mythology. The so-called topocentric houses (which are no more or less topocentric [= based on the place] than any other quadrant house system) consist of a tiny adjustment to the Placidus system, yielding intermediate cusps that, for most latitudes, differ by less than a degree -- in fact, often by just a few minutes of arc or nothing at all.

The Placidus system is based on the semi-arc method of directing described by Ptolemy in the 2nd century; it was known as a house system to ibn Ezra in the 12th; and it was popularized by Placidus (naturally) in the 17th. Placidus also formulated the variant method of directions under the pole which use a formula extremely close to that of the so-called topocentric system. Placidus houses and directions (both by semi-arcs and 'under the pole') were the standard system of the English-speaking world throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries. It is simply inconceivable that Page and Polich should have been unaware of these methods. And of course the system is based on spherical trigonometry; what else is there?
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

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Thank you Martin for your input and scholar look on this matter.
Of course, I do not think that Page and Polich reinvented the wheel, they searched for the best House system and found 'with tiny adjustment' that Placidus was very close (within a degree) to what their investigation led them. Thus Topocentric.

I did some research on my own chart, listing House positions in all House systems and watched transits to these positions and found Placidus -Topocentric to produce events that could not be explained otherwise.

I have read astrologers saying that Koch worked for them and I believe them. Is it because of where they live (by latitude) or is it a midpoint or a Fixed Star or a Lot or an unknown TNO. Every assumption is a possibility.

Houses are a projection of our own psyche, they are not tangible objects like a planet we can see. They point to the Space around us like East, West, North and South.
In 1977, Charles A. Jayne published an article in Cosmecology Bulletin where he wrote:
"The horizon, equator, ecliptic, and even the galactic and supergalactic planes correspond symbolically to the various different dimensions or levels or our consciousness - as they exist now, in mutual interpenetrations."
"Planets in Locality' Steve Cozzi p. 246
In other words, they are wheels within wheels within wheels. And for most of us, when we start debating over which house system is better, we look at a tree and not the forest. We are right and wrong at the same time.

Appreciate your comments as always!

Ouranos
Blessings!

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Re: "I don't want to start a war here, but as a historian, I have to say that this is essentially a piece of modern mythology. The so-called topocentric houses (which are no more or less topocentric [= based on the place] than any other quadrant house system) consist of a tiny adjustment to the Placidus system.."

I'll put forth that Placidus has been so popular because it is so close to being correct. (Topocentric) But in the primary directions method that I am using, Placidus might as well be equal house, because the maturing directions won't be within orb. ie. the relevant aspects will be invisible

Re: "And of course the system is based on spherical trigonometry; what else is there?"

Since, by your comment, you didn't seem to understand what I meant, I'll elaborate. I said, "... imagined spherical trigonometry concepts..." and what I meant to say was "imaginary preconceived spherical trigonometry concepts." Sorry for the confusion. Finding out where the cusps should be and then (and only then) divising the math to properly define those cusps, sounds like empiricism and empiricism sounds like science (to my ears).

If another house system would give primary directions to within minutes of arc and which are thematically correct to the experience of events, then I'd be happy to use that system. So far, this is the only one YET TESTED that keeps ringing the bell.

I don't want to start any arguments, either. (funny you jumped to the word "war") Everyone can use whatever house system they want. (and should)

For many, it's a choice. I'm using the only one that will work for me.

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Atlantean wrote:Finding out where the cusps should be and then (and only then) divising the math to properly define those cusps, sounds like empiricism and empiricism sounds like science (to my ears).
Yes, I understand that that is the claim. I just don't think there is evidence that it happened that way, and it seems extremely unlikely. As a study of the 20th-century literature on primary directions will show, the Page/Polich methodology is very similar to that of Erich Kühr (who, like many others, directed by Placidean position circles). Kühr and others like him were influenced in turn by those before them, going back to Placidus, and eventually all the way to Ptolemy. At every stage people were building on earlier ideas (that is, preconceptions) and developing mental models (that is, using their imagination). As, incidentally, even professional scientists in the universities do.
I'll put forth that Placidus has been so popular because it is so close to being correct.
Again, as a historian, I have to say that much as I would love for correct ideas (in all sorts of fields) to be more viable than incorrect ones, things rarely work out that way. I could describe in some detail the circumstances that led to Placidus becoming so popular, but that would be a very lengthy detour (and it has been done before). Suffice it to say that truth value plays no necessary part in the narrative, just as it does not in the earlier success of the Regiomontanus system (or of communism, or Christianity, or what have you).

As for what works astrologically, that is a different discussion and very much in the eye of the beholder (most of the directions you listed don't look very convincing to me, though I accept that you see them differently). I just wanted to raise a legitimate doubt about the founding myth of the so-called topocentric system, which I don't think holds up under scrutiny.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

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Re: "...most of the directions you listed don't look very convincing to me, though I accept that you see them differently..."

Okay, which ones appear wrong to you? and please, peruse the following out-of-sample events' Primary Directions and please tell me exactly which ones seem wrong from your eyes. Let's discuss this. ;)
Image


Let's start with my Uncle's death... Saturn-Mars (from Witte) interruption of work, periodic work. Activities leading to separation or which are periodically interrupted. Periodic work. Interruption of work. Sickness. Acute sicknesses or matters. interruption. Action of separation. Forced separation. Death. Obsequies. Funeral. Seems right to me.

What could Venus-Jupiter (expansion of luxury) have to do with a major job promotion? ;)

Pluto (death) conjoins the Node (associations, often familial), how could that relate to the death of a family member?

Sun-Saturn for my illness and quarantine, from Witte, Debility. Susceptibility to disease and illness. The old body. Physical severance. Old man and old age. The serious man. Personal and physical hindrances and difficulties. Physical separations. To take leave. Bodily separations.

Death of a Father-figure, we have the Sun contacting the house cusp normally associated with "death." Come on!

If these Primary Directions don't make perfect sense to you, I literally don't know how to help you...