31
Hello Ouranos,

Thank you for taking the time to show a more all-encompassing description of your methodology.

To form any kind of personal opinion, I would definitely have to see it taken out of the theoretical/descriptive and more into the practical. ie. with at least one case example, even a cherry-picked one would be better than none, in this case

When I am discussing things here, relative to Primary Directions, it is always Topocentric Primary Directions. In this system, we're mostly not describing processes that unfold over time, we are describing events.

As I have already provided some practical examples of events etc., let me do as you have done and elaborate a bit about my methodology...

1. Rectification to prevent GIGO

2. Once the birthtime is established as correct, ie. we have the right symbolism for a list of events, in Topocentric Primary Directions, Secondaries, and PSSR aspects; then we can 1) examine past events to extract MEANING and 2) can look at future times to see what to expect over a given time-period or for a specific date (for instance elections, or job interviews, etc.)

3. Analyzing the direct and converse Transits, Secondaries, Tropical and Sidereal Solar Returns, Lunar Returns, Directions, and (direct) Age Harmonics; we synthesize the combined testimonies to arrive at a result. Crucial in this, for me, is to see the actual charts for each system (other than TPDs) as bi-wheels, not just merely aspect lists. Additionally important are the diurnal transiting positions and the associated chart itself, since there are conspicuous alignments that are often extremely indicative.

This is pretty much it, in a nutshell. Though step 3 seems very time-consuming, since it has a lot of "parts," it's actually step 1 that can take the most time, in some cases.

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Re: "...okay.. it appears steve s gave atlantean his birth data in a pm, because atlantean is working off something more then just an event chart... confusing to follow for others.. i am sure this must be obvious for anyone who has tried! if steve wants to provide his birth data to everyone, it might be an interesting exercise for the group of us..."

I thought I had Steve's info, but it wasn't in my astro program (Janus!), so I scoured the web for 30 seconds, until I found it.

I'll save you the time,

SteveS
Sept 20 1947
10:00 AM (from Birth Certificate)
Albertville, Alabama

33
Atlantean, with your last post about the difficulty loading Polaris, I now know for sure I will have to wait on my out of town friend to visit me; when that will be—I don’t know.

I do understand one thing about Age Harmonics and TPDs---must have a precise radical time. I am pretty sure I have a precise radical time for the NYSE:

May 17 1792; 7:52 AM LMT; New York

I have a couple of friend clients who at times know how to exercise very low risk/high reward possible option trades, which requires par-excellent timing. Since I am completely unfamiliar with most of the methodology practice on this forum, if any one wants to offer their opinions about the NYSE for 2022 or any specific time frames for 2022, please post. If any timing offered proves to be right for short term option trading-- rewards will be forth coming through PM communications.

Atlantean has posted my birth info and both he I through his use of Age Harmonics and TPDs are pretty sure my birth time is close to exact. If anyone wants to offer any info when would be optimum times for profitable speculations for me, please post. If your methodology proves correct rewards will happen if I exercise action. We will communicate by PM or feel free to post. I love to experimnt with anykind of methodology for proff it works with my life objectives with any kind of speculations.

34
To form any kind of personal opinion, I would definitely have to see it taken out of the theoretical/descriptive and more into the practical. ie. with at least one case example, even a cherry-picked one would be better than none, in this case
Several PD examples can be looked at on the website of Giuseppe Bezza
http://www.cieloeterra.it/testi.html#stelle
Using Chrome, Right-click to translate in English
In the section Example of Parents, you will find 3 cases on Death of a princess Diana, her driver and Napoleon Bonaparte.

Another interesting article is 'Of the division of the twelve houses'in the section Aspects-Houses
where he says...
" A house is nothing more than the space that a star travels and illuminates from the point of its entry into the house itself to the point of its exit. Therefore, the quantity of that house must be taken from these points and for the same reason the quantity of the three houses between the rising and the culminating must be assumed from the point of rising and the passage to the meridian, I mean the entrance and the exit of the stars from the same quadrant. The preceding proposition is therefore manifest: the space of a house is that in which the star, while passing the time, launches its influences at us in conformity with the nature of that house. And this, on the other hand, the star cannot produce except while it is in that house, that is, from the point of its entry to that of its exit,"

What I understand from what he says is that the entrance of a planet in a House signals the beginning of an influence in a particular area of our life. And this influence will last until it exits the House. Similar to the Ingress of a planet in a Sign.
Now, how many times in your life did you have Mars crossing your 3rd House by transit? Say you have Mars by PD entering or in your 3rd House, this changes the transit. And this is where the Lords of the Year come into play. For example, your PD ASC is in Aries or Scorpio, you are in a year of a Profected Aries or Scorpio, you have the ASC in your Solar Return in Aries or Scorpio or Mars is Angular in any of these systems. This is what will make your commonplace transit of Mars in your 3rd House more significant.
Once you identify the influence, take a step back and look at your radix.
What does the 3rd House is doing in your chart? Do you have a square from Mercury to Mars? Do any of these 2 planets are connected to the 3rd House somehow?
If so, do you have a natal trine between both in which case it will be a temporary squermish with a neighbor or a brother.
If you have a square and one of the 2 is connected to the 8th House natally, this could signal a car accident or a more threatening passage in your life.
I am just making up scenarios here but you can see that a PD needs to be investigated further down the road to give you a better understanding of the overall picture.

Best to you,
Ouranos
Blessings!

35
Re: "What I understand from what he says is that the entrance of a planet in a House signals the beginning of an influence in a particular area of our life."

It could be that it is so...and makes sense; HOWEVER, in terms of topocentric primary directions, the cusps are hot spots and aspects to those cusps occur extremely often when events of the nature of the house happen.

ie. directions in this system aren't some quasi-defined "process" that takes place over some lengthy time-period, rather as distinctive events of the nature of the house, close in time to the aspect's partility

conj/opp under 0° 11' of arc
all other aspects under 0° 6' of arc

I'm not saying that a given planet doesn't have an effect the entire time it's in the house and especially so as it makes aspects, I'm merely saying that for our examination, it becomes unimportant.

When my Ascendant comes to Venus (0° 0') as I get married, it's not necessary to bring in Venus' house in order to understand what is being implied. Naturally, when Mars contacts the 3rd House cusp, we need more info in order to ascertain if this is more likely a brother being born or something negative happening with an existant Brother, etc.

In short, I'm saying that there isn't a one size fits all approach to Primary Directions, since the various types appear to operate under their own rules... and with their own expectations.

36
Atlantean wrote:In short, I'm saying that there isn't a one size fits all approach to Primary Directions, since the various types appear to operate under their own rules... and with their own expectations.
It is certainly true that our expectations influence what we see and what we don't. But it is a historical fact that directions (which only became known as 'primary' directions in the late 17th century, and the label only really caught on about a hundred years after that) were used in pretty much the same way by all astrologers, across cultures, for nearly two millennia. People differed to some extent with regard to calculation, which could be more or less sophisticated, but they were fairly unanimous on how to relate directions to life events. The so-called Topocentric system is a blip by comparison, and very idiosyncratic in its outlook.
When my Ascendant comes to Venus (0° 0') as I get married, it's not necessary to bring in Venus' house in order to understand what is being implied.
No, not if you already know that it happened when you were married. ;) But if you had seen it coming ten or twenty years in advance, could you really have been sure that it would mean marriage? And to someone who was already married, or not of an age to marry, it would have to mean something else. So I agree with Lilly:
The Planets do signifie these things properly of themselves in Directions, in what Nativity soever they be, or in what part of Heaven; but accidentally, they have signification according to the nature of the Houses they are in, and are Lords of; by considering whereof, you shall finde the true intention of what is signified by the Direction.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

37
I agree with you on this Martin,

To add to your comments, if you look at Gauquelin research, the peak is oftentimes found around the House cusp and it does not drop to 0, it fades.

Atlantean,
I am sure your Venus at the ASC did not happen overnight. You entered a 'space' of love even before you got married. When Christopher Reeves's PD Venus hit his ASC and Lord of his MC, he played in 2 Superman movies. The whole period was Venusian for him.
Blessings!

38
Considering what Robert Hand said about parans being linked to diurnal rhythms, I decided to check out parans by looking at the Z-Analogue Diurnal Arc Charts.

I don’t look at the parans that Robert Hand looks at - the ones devised by Oblique Ascension,Oblique Descension,Right Ascension that are in Solar Fire and most other Astrology programs.

I look at parans based on the body motion with true altitude. That is how Bernadette Brady’s Starlight program does parans.



An example is from a paran article at Kate’s Ambient Astrology site:

The above image is a "paran clock;" a tool which allows us to visually experience any paran relationship (mundane square) between two planets. Notice the exact angular relationship (though it looks like a conjunction) between Venus and Pluto - located at the top of the chart @ 10:30am PDT. Venus is culminating, "M" stands for Meridian, while Pluto is rising in the East, "E." Notice in the chart below Venus is culminating, but Pluto is not very angular by ecliptic degree. You can see below how the two-dimensional chart breaks down; it can't capture the actual spatial relationship between planets, it only captures them by zodiacal degree.

In the image below you can see Pluto is clearly on the horizon while Venus is culminating (at the MC). The horizon is the Ascendant, and is what astrologers refer to as the rising sign. Pluto's true relationship to the horizon isn't accurately portrayed in the chart above. Pluto isn't even in the Ascending sign in the chart above, but it is on the horizon.

I think this phenomenon, Pluto on the horizon while Venus culminates, would have been exceptionally important to the ancients, just as stars on angles were. Of course Pluto is invisible to the naked eye so they wouldn't have actually made this specific observation. But a paran can occur between many planets (and planets with fixed stars) and are visual statements that cannot be denied. Today we often miss seeing these truly angular relationships, because we view everything as if it were on the ecliptic (the Sun's path). It's good to jump off the ecliptic once in awhile...

http://ambientastrology.com/articles/20 ... faced.html



I generated the Z-Analogue Diurnal Arc chart of Kate’s Ambient Astrology paran chart in article which highlights the Venus Culminating, Pluto Rising Square Paran.


There is an exact Venus square Pluto in the chart with Pluto Rising and Venus Culminating in the Z-Analogue Diurnal Arc.


https://divergentastrology.blogspot.com ... urnal.html

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Raymond Scott wrote:I don’t look at the parans that Robert Hand looks at - the ones devised by Oblique Ascension,Oblique Descension,Right Ascension that are in Solar Fire and most other Astrology programs.

I look at parans based on the body motion with true altitude. That is how Bernadette Brady’s Starlight program does parans.
I haven't read what Rob Hand says, or Brady for that matter, but if one body is rising while another is culminating, the OA of the former will always be 90 degrees ahead of the RA of the latter. Those are two ways of saying the same thing.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

40
Martin Gansten wrote:
Raymond Scott wrote:I don’t look at the parans that Robert Hand looks at - the ones devised by Oblique Ascension,Oblique Descension,Right Ascension that are in Solar Fire and most other Astrology programs.

I look at parans based on the body motion with true altitude. That is how Bernadette Brady’s Starlight program does parans.
I haven't read what Rob Hand says, or Brady for that matter, but if one body is rising while another is culminating, the OA of the former will always be 90 degrees ahead of the RA of the latter. Those are two ways of saying the same thing.

Robert Hand and Kenneth Bowser work with parans that are tied to the Equator.

The parans that Bernadette Brady use are tied to the Horizon.
I have her two books on fixed stars and her Starlight software, and so I am very familiar with them.
https://zyntara.com/tutorials/


Here is Robert Hand's article about them
https://www.alabe.com/text/Dineen-AstofPlace.html

I have his book Essays on Astrology which includes information on parans.


here is Kenneth Bowser's article about them
https://keplercollege.org/index.php/art ... s-in-mundo

his youtube video
Mundane Aspects in Astrological Interpretation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaoIxIyF3ao

I have his books Introduction to Western Sidereal Astrology and The Western Sidereal Astrology Interpretation Workbook.


BTW I prefer to work with mainly the parans tied to the Equator now.

I was just posting from my blog post.




Right Ascension of the Midheaven (RAMC) is the Local Sidereal Time (LST)


An object conjunct the Midheaven in Right Ascension is an object Culminating.

An object conjunct the Imum Coeli in Right Ascension is an object Anti-culminating



In regards to parans tied to the Equator


Conjunction parans:

Objects Rising together is Oblique Ascendant conjunct Oblique Ascendant

Objects Setting together is Oblique Descendant conjunct Oblique Descendant

Objects Culminating together is a conjunction in Right Ascension

Objects Anti-culminating together is a conjunction in Right Ascension


Opposition parans:

Object Rising while another object is Setting is Oblique Ascendant oppose Oblique Descendant

Object Culminating while another object is Anti-culminating is an opposition in Right Ascension


Square parans:

Object Rising while another object is Culminating is Oblique Ascendant square Right Ascension

Object Rising while another object is Anti-culminating is Oblique Ascendant square Right Ascension

Object Setting while another object is Culminating is Oblique Descendant square Right Ascension

Object Setting while another object is Anti-culminating is Oblique
Descendant square Right Ascension

41
Raymond Scott wrote:Robert Hand and Kenneth Bowser work with parans that are tied to the Equator.

The parans that Bernadette Brady use are tied to the Horizon.
Objects rising or setting are on the horizon; objects culminating or anticulminating are on the meridian. At least one of those circles needs to be involved in defining paranatellonta ('parans') in a broad sense. You can't do it with just the equator.

In this context, the equator is just a sort of measuring device, used to define when (= with what degree on the equator) an object will rise, culminate, etc. The RA of an object is the equatorial degree with which it will culminate; its OA, the degree with which it will rise. Either may be expressed in time (90 degrees corresponding to 6 hours).
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

42
Martin Gansten wrote:
Raymond Scott wrote:Robert Hand and Kenneth Bowser work with parans that are tied to the Equator.

The parans that Bernadette Brady use are tied to the Horizon.
Objects rising or setting are on the horizon; objects culminating or anticulminating are on the meridian. At least one of those circles needs to be involved in defining paranatellonta ('parans') in a broad sense. You can't do it with just the equator.

In this context, the equator is just a sort of measuring device, used to define when (= with what degree on the equator) an object will rise, culminate, etc. The RA of an object is the equatorial degree with which it will culminate; its OA, the degree with which it will rise. Either may be expressed in time (90 degrees corresponding to 6 hours).

Kenneth Bowser mentioned they're parans tied to the Equator, and so that's why I mentioned that.
Thank you for explaining though

Parans involving Rising and Setting that Brady uses are different from the parans that Solar Fire uses.

The parans that Brady uses stay the same throughout the whole day.
The parans that Solar Fire uses change throughout the day.

This goes especially for the Moon

in my own astrological nativity

October 29, 1971
San Francisco, California
3:20 AM


Solar Fire method

Moon Rise 16:44:19 in sidereal time
Mars Rise 16:45:45 in sidereal time
in Rise conjunction paran very close

12 hours later

Moon Rise 17:00:19 in sidereal time
Mars Rise 16:45:18 in sidereal time
too far apart to be in paran

Using the method that Brady uses, but including midnight to midnight as the day (Brady prefers the Roman/Egyptian day which is sunrise to sunrise according to her Starlight program settings)

Moon Rise 15:40:51 in civil time
Mars Rise 15:21:33 in civil time
not in a conjunction paran

12 hours later, there is no change.

so everybody born with the same birthdate and same birthplace as me have the same parans with the Brady method regardless of time of birth
that's not the case with the Solar Fire method
I prefer the Solar Fire method parans because they're more personal.


In David Cochrane's Sirius Astrology program, The Speculum lists the Oblique Ascension, Oblique Descension, and Right Ascension

Moon Oblique Ascension in 341.081 degrees
Mars Oblique Ascension in 341.189 degrees

so Sirius shows that their Oblique Ascensions conjunct and so Moon and Mars are in a Rising conjunction paran


With Brady's method, I noticed that objects can culminate together without them being in Right Ascension.

for example

I have

Moon Culminate 21:35:33 in civil time
Fomalhaut Culminate 21:34:30 in civil time
in conjunction paran


Moon's RA 22hr43m37s
Fomalhaut RA 22hr56m08s
not in conjunction




According to Starlight program

Brady's method includes body motion and observation
Solar Fire method doesn't include body motion nor observation