The Many KP ayanamsas

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Martin Gansten wrote:the late Rick Houck (also on the basis of modern techniques, and including transsaturnian planets) independently adjusted the Lahiri ayan??ṃśa by 6 minutes, before he ever heard of Krishnamurti. The difference between Houck's value and the Krishnamurti ayan??ṃśa is in the seconds of arc.
Hi Martin: You make it sound like Houck and Krishnamurti ayanamsas are super close. Just so those that are not familiar or new to the whole ayanamsa discussion I would like to clarify that Houck’s ayanamsa is closer to an arc minute with Krishnamurti ayanamsa. Saying seconds of arc at least to me implies something less than a half a minute of arc.

I assume that your comment was comparing Houck value to Solar Fire's Krishnamurti ayanamsa. It is also used in Swiss Ephemeris so most Western astrological software uses this value for KP ayanamsa. It turns out that the Solar Fire Krishnamurti ayanamsa is a bit of a special animal.

If you're using Solar Fire they use 22-21-50 (epoch Jan 1, 1900) which is off by 14.5" due to Robert Hand not realizing that the ayanamsa tables were calculated for April 15th. Clearly Hand pulled the values from KP Table of Houses (April 1986) or another reference that used those tables. This puts the difference between Houck and Solar Fire ayanamsa at 55 arcseconds.

Krishnamurti's original ayanamsa which was only given by him accurate to the arcminute was 22-22. So a comparison to Houck using that is rather vague.

In the bigger picture of ayanamsa differences less than an arc minute is pretty close especially considering the 40 or so different proposed ayanamsas that ones that even have shred of credibility have a 6-7 degree spread.

Here is a very short excerpt from my unpublished paper, KP Ayanamsa: Some Considerations for Researchers that will help explain what I mean about Solar Fire’s Krishnamurti ayanamsa.
???Krishnamurti Ayanamsa in Solar Fire"

“Solar Fire’s Krishnamurti ayanamsa value was a legacy from Robert Hand’s DOS-based Nova program when Solar Fire acquired it in the early ’90s.???

“The value Robert Hand used of 22-21-50 for epoch January 1st, 1900 in Nova software matches the ayanamsa value used in Krishman’s Table of Houses (KPTofH for short) first published in 1986 by K Subramaniam.

I don’t know if this is the exact source that Hand originally used but regardless there is a minor problem, when Robert Hand pulled the value it is not for January 1st, 1900 but April 15th, 1900. Not to be faulted in this regard though, the KPTofH is lacking a lot of information on how the tables in it were prepared and there are no examples except for finding the ascendant via the tables. There is not even an interpolation table for intermediate days to calculate the ayanamsa. The ayanamsa table does not state the calendar date (epoch), which if you are a western researcher unfamiliar with KP System and traditional Indian norms, would assume is January 1st but is in fact for April 15th.

Because of the casual approach of K Subramaniam regarding the formation and use of the tables, Western software developers adopting this value from Robert Hand’s Nova software have perpetuated a 14 arcsecond mistake. Call it a legacy error. The value for January 1st, 1900 should be 22-21-36! It’s even this way in Swiss Ephemeris that pulled this same value from Solar Fire.???

“This really isn’t a problem with Solar Fire; it has more to do with the total muddle of all the KP ayanamsas and lack of supporting documentation.???
References:
Graham Dawson, personal communication July 7th, 2021.
Sothidamamani K. Subramaniam, Krishman’s K.P. Tables of Houses, Krishman & Co, Chennai, 5th edition 2011, (1986 first edition).
“Swisseph Documentation.??? 2020. Astro.com. 2020. https://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph ... oc58931097, 2.8.6. Krishnamurti ayanamshas. (Accessed July 2021).

Anyway, I thought this would be of interest to some.

Blessings,
~AJ
Last edited by AJ on Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Houck ayanamsa/KP ayanamsa

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AJ wrote:I assume that your comment was comparing Houck value to Solar Fire's Krishnamurti ayanamsa.
No, my source was vaguer than that, namely, my own memory of discussions with Rick Houck more than 25 years ago. I just remembered that the difference was less than a minute of arc, which to me is a tiny, almost negligible difference (but then I don't use things like Pluto transits).

I also remember from my own studies of Krishnamurti Paddhati back in the 1990s that there was some disagreement even among Krishnamurti's closest students as to the exact value of his ayan??ṃśa. I don't recall their names anymore, though. The only one I had the chance of meeting personally was K. Hariharan (one of Krishnamurti's sons), but I'm not sure if he was involved in those discussions. There is probably published evidence of them for anyone who wants to dig it up.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

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AJ wrote:
If you're using Solar Fire they use 22-21-50 (epoch Jan 1, 1900) which is off by 14.5" due to Robert Hand not realizing that the ayanamsa tables were calculated for April 15th. Clearly Hand pulled the values from KP Table of Houses (April 1986) or another reference that used those tables. This puts the difference between Houck and Solar Fire ayanamsa at 55 arcseconds.

Krishnamurti's original ayanamsa which was only given by him accurate to the arcminute was 22-22. So a comparison to Houck using that is rather vague.
I have a photocopy of a page from a Krishnamurti ephemeris which has January 1 dates from 1861 to 2103 with interpolation tables of seconds for all other dates of the year. The value for January 1 1900 is 22 21 50 which is the value used in Solar Fire. Then (for example) for February 1 there is a 4 second adjustment, for Jan 13 a 2 second adjustment and so forth. There is interpolation in seconds for each day of the year for the 12 months.

This page is from an ephemeris owned by a visiting Indian astrologer to the San Francisco area, and I can't begin to remember the date...perhaps some time in the 1980s or 1990s?? The astrologer might have been Manik Chand Jain who was giving classes at the time. The date would have been after 1986 when during a trip to India I was introduced to the Krishnamurti system. I didn’t copy the title page, so all I have is that one photocopied page.

AJ wrote:
Krishnamurti's original ayanamsa which was only given by him accurate to the arcminute was 22-22. So a comparison to Houck using that is rather vague.
This cannot be true because Krishnamurti's sub-ruler tables include seconds of degrees.

22 22 45" Richard Houck's value for 1 Jan 1900
22 21 50" Krishnamurti ephemeris for 1 Jan 1900

Only in more recent years based on some small technical details has there been discussion about adjustments to the original Krishnamurti ayanamsa. So the 'KP New' ayanamsa was born. From AstroSage here are some comparison values for 1 Feb 2000:

23 45 49" KP Old (original, Swiss ephemeris)
23 46 04" KP 'New'

Modern software often gives the choice of KP Old or KP New.

Other figures from AstroSage:
15 seconds: difference between KP Old and KP New (as above)
5' 39" difference between KP Old and Lahiri (So not quite 6 minutes)
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

Re: Houck ayanamsa/KP ayanamsa

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Martin Gansten wrote: back in the 1990s that there was some disagreement even among Krishnamurti's closest students as to the exact value of his ayan??ṃśa...

...There is probably published evidence of them for anyone who wants to dig it up.
Thanks Martin.
Yes there is plenty of and documentation material research on this. A lot of the discussions took place in The Astrology & Athirshta??? magazine which is hard to get hold of now and it only circulated among a small group that studied KP System. Harder too for a western researcher in these days of Covid. I've put off my trip to India now 3 times over the last as many years.

That bit in my post was just a small excerpt from my paper that covers the huge span of time and argument over Krishnamurti's ayanamsa after his death in 1972. The debate still isn't settled by any means even today amongst advanced students of KP System.

The undeniable fact that the original ayanamsa provided by KSK was only accurate to the arcminute is the proverbial elephant in the room with Krishnamurti Paddhati. It's not denied but not talked about much outside their circle. Also a true conundrum about Krishnamurti the man.

Hi Therese: KSK died in 1972 leaving only his original table accurate to an arcminute. This is a documented fact. I was almost shocked by this when I first learned of it and that's why I wrote a paper on it that is now 32 pages and over 8000 words. The amount of math, documentation and time that has gone into it along with fact checking has in fact been Herculean. I know what I am talking about here. I wish I had time to respond to all of your points but I do not. You can read my paper when it's done. I need some resources that due to Covid I am having a lot of trouble finding right now so it is not complete.
KSK left a lot of riddles. The perplexing origin of his ayanamsa, KSK’s clear lack of understanding of Newcomb’s theory of precession, and lack of accuracy are troubling. These disparities should be more widely known. After decades of research, teaching his method in the late 1950s years before he published the Readers in 1966, you would think he would have resolved these issues surrounding his ayanamsa by then. He died at age 64. There can be no doubt Krishnamurti was aware of these problems in the development of his system, especially since it is touted that his research on twins was pivotal in the discovery of his system.
Blessings,
~AJ

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Therese Hamilton wrote:AJ wrote:
I have a photocopy of a page from a Krishnamurti ephemeris which has January 1 dates from 1861 to 2103 with interpolation tables of seconds for all other dates of the year. The value for January 1 1900 is 22 21 50 which is the value used in Solar Fire. Then (for example) for February 1 there is a 4 second adjustment, for Jan 13 a 2 second adjustment and so forth. There is interpolation in seconds for each day of the year for the 12 months.
I would be obliged if by chance you come by the full reference for that ephemeris. Could you possibly make a scan of it or even a good smartphone camera shot of it and email that to me?

The reference I have for 22-21-50 is from KP Table of Houses and is for April 15th 1900 and this was published in 1985 by K.Subramaniam another son of KSK producing his own version of the ayanamsa and the table was prepared by Dr. Balachandran, an eminent KP astrologer. This ayanamsa is the same as found in "Astrological Tables for All" by Eshwar Manu. Could this be the source for the pages you have? It doesn't sound like it because the value 22-21-50 is for April 15th 1900.

Don't you find it curious that on AstroSage, none of the KP ayanamsas for Jan 1 1900 or April 15 1900 do not have this value (22-21-50)?
Another indication of the confusions surrounding KSK ayanamsa, Including KSK's original, there are at least 7 different ones that I have had to become very familiar with.
I would not be surprised if there are more.

Thanks for your comments Therese.
Blessings,
~AJ

Re: Houck ayanamsa/KP ayanamsa

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AJ wrote:KSK died in 1972 leaving only his original table accurate to an arcminute. This is a documented fact. I was almost shocked by this when I first learned of it
Why, though? When would an astrologer using Krishnamurti's techniques (viṃśottarī daś?? and transits, the slowest transiting planet being Saturn) need greater precision than a minute of arc? Yes, the subdivisions are technically defined to the second of arc, but they are primarily used for house cusps, which means that they need to be rectified anyway.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

Re: Houck ayanamsa/KP ayanamsa

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Martin Gansten wrote:
AJ wrote:KSK died in 1972 leaving only his original table accurate to an arcminute. This is a documented fact. I was almost shocked by this when I first learned of it
Why, though? When would an astrologer using Krishnamurti's techniques (viṃśottarī daś?? and transits, the slowest transiting planet being Saturn) need greater precision than a minute of arc? Yes, the subdivisions are technically defined to the second of arc, but they are primarily used for house cusps, which means that they need to be rectified anyway.
[Seeing your question I belted off an email to an astro-friend that uses KP, we’ll see what he says, if he answers, his health has been poor this past year. ]

Personally it does not bother me as I am not a KP system astrologer. I have no real investment in it other than that I was surprised because the myth is that KSK was such a detailed and careful researcher KP prasna is able to tell you when the lights will come back on in an Indian brownout!

The standard was to the arcsecond in ayanamsa tables as well. Lahiri and Rajan for example.

But, it does bother the KP Paddhati community enough to keep them busy as a cat on a hot tin roof in the decades since KSK’s death to nail it down to the arcsecond. They are still at it. So they must consider it pretty paramount. I know of at least 3 heavy mathematical attempts to reconcile the ayanamsa table to Krishnamurti’s zero year of 291CE. I’ve done the calc’s myself using Newcomb’s Theory of Precession from his ayanamsa table back to his zero year and it doesn’t work, it's almost an arc minute too high. That hasn’t stopped the attempts to reconcile the two within KP System society to this day. It’s a square peg in a round hole.

Sorry for the deviation, but I think it's an important point. Back on topic now, I think.

You studied the KP system so I’ll take your word for it that a 1 arcminute ayanamsa accuracy is fine for a KP astrologer but I will try and answer your question based on what I know. Correct me where necessary but I think I’m done after this.

As I understand it the KP system is so structured that even a ‘second’ difference in ayanamsa value can result in change of the sub lord of a cusp. The sub is the deciding factor of a planet or house cusp in the KP system.

Subdivision to the sub lord with accuracy to the arc minute could be acceptable to some users, but the number of borderline cases multiplies. As the story goes it was his research on the life events of twins that gave him the breakthrough on his method. This requires sub down to pratyantar dasha or the third sub lord level to differentiate between them. Prasna too demands a high degree of precision, but would not suffer as much as the charts of twins. Still, you need a highly accurate value for your ayanamsa.

I would also think if you were rectifying it would be easier if your ayanamsa was accurate to the second or each rectification you are doing is correcting for the ayanamsa too.

It is worth mentioning that small changes in ayanamsa by even an half an arc minute changes the start date of the sub-period in Vimshottari dasha by four to five days, depending on the proportion of the period etc., (sometimes more sometimes less). Going to the third level, pratyantar, is even more sensitive.

In the larger ayanamsa discussion just for more comparison for those not familiar, the not quite 6 minutes between Lahiri and KP original causes dasas and bhuktis to begin 20 to 40’ish days later than KP.

Blessings,
~AJ

Re: Houck ayanamsa/KP ayanamsa

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We've really gone off on a tangent here, so I'll try to be as brief as I can.
I was surprised because the myth is that KSK was such a detailed and careful researcher KP prasna is able to tell you when the lights will come back on in an Indian brownout!
As I recall, there were eye-witness accounts of that particular prediction coming true. ;) Also going by memory, there were a few seconds' discrepancy, which I think would still count as a spectacularly correct prediction to most observers. I believe it was based on the ascendant, which on average takes 4 seconds of time to move one minute of arc. That's not a lot.
As I understand it the KP system is so structured that even a ‘second’ difference in ayanamsa value can result in change of the sub lord of a cusp. The sub is the deciding factor of a planet or house cusp in the KP system.
Yes, but if you're unlucky, you can have the same situation with a house cusp right on the verge of two signs. In such cases, which ayan??ṃśa you use (if any) is really immaterial, because no birth time is noted with that degree of precision. So you have to decide the matter astrologically (= rectify the chart), which is what KP astrologers would do, too.
As the story goes it was his research on the life events of twins that gave him the breakthrough on his method. This requires sub down to pratyantar dasha or the third sub lord level to differentiate between them.
For the house cusps? The 'subs' average something like a degree and a half, or approximately 6 minutes of clock time on the ascendant (or other cusp). At least in natural births, twins would rarely be born within the same 6-minute span.
It is worth mentioning that small changes in ayanamsa by even an half an arc minute changes the start date of the sub-period in Vimshottari dasha by four to five days, depending on the proportion of the period etc., (sometimes more sometimes less). Going to the third level, pratyantar, is even more sensitive.
No, the sensitivity doesn't change with the level. A minute of arc (incidentally, now we are talking about the Moon) would change the balance of the period at birth by approximately 3 to 9 days, depending on which planet's period was in progress. The dates of every sub-, sub-sub-, etc., period would be displaced by just that number of days.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

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AJ wrote:
I would be obliged if by chance you come by the full reference for that ephemeris. Could you possibly make a scan of it or even a good smartphone camera shot of it and email that to me?
It would be a miracle outside of heaven if I found a full reference for that ephemeris as I don't even remember the source of when or where of its origin. Yes, I can send you a copy of the page as I have a scanner. Also, if anyone else wants a copy, please send your email address to eastwest9@snowcrest.net.

Whatever the source of the value of the Krishnamurti ayanamsa which is in Solar Fire and the Swiss ephemeris, it is giving very interesting results in Atlantean's research. Also it has become standardized in software for many years. So it appears that we can continue to use that value for the foreseeable future.

I haven't been able to find any data on the source and mathematics of the KP New value. AJ, if you or anyone else has that information, we would like to see it.

In the meantime, I hope that Atlantean will continue with his research as it is so important for the ayanamsa dilemma. Later, any further research on the KP ayanamsa can only help us to bring this ayanamsa down to the arc second of accuracy.

AJ, looking forward to your full paper!

Martin, I don't suppose that posts relating specifically to the ayanamsa can be moved to a new ayanamsa topic, so Atlantean's research can be kept on track here? The KP ayanamsa controversy is so different from the Fagan-Bradley 'set-in-stone' history. But reviewing that history places that value on shaky ground as well. Apparently from what I can tell, Bradley simply decided that Spica was at 29 degrees of Virgo, and built his ayanamsa on that assumed 'fact.'
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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Therese Hamilton wrote:I can send you a copy of the page as I have a scanner. Also, if anyone else wants a copy, please send your email address to eastwest9@snowcrest.net.
Thanks Therese. That will help me track down the source. There are so many proposed Krishnamurti ayanamsas it is very confusing because some have the same names. It is no surprise there are more. The span of the whole subject is decades. That's why I need a trip to India.
Therese Hamilton wrote:Whatever the source of the value of the Krishnamurti ayanamsa which is in Solar Fire and the Swiss ephemeris, it is giving very interesting results in Atlantean's research. Also it has become standardized in software for many years. So it appears that we can continue to use that value for the foreseeable future.
My purpose is not to address the veracity of any particular version of KP ayanamsas. That's another issue altogether. Personally, I rather prefer the Solar Fire Krishnamurti ayanamsa to others. As Martin pointed out an arc minute or so doesn't ruffle my feathers. Like all siderealists, to have a spot on ayanamsa would be dream come true. Lahiri, Rajan, Houck, KP are all pretty close.
Therese Hamilton wrote:I haven't been able to find any data on the source and mathematics of the KP New value. AJ, if you or anyone else has that information, we would like to see it.
KP NEW or KPNA as it is also known is the 'authorized' KP ayanamsa. K.Subramaniam a son of KSK and editor of KP & Astrology declared I think in 2003 (don't have my notes handy right now.) that KPNA superseded all other previous tables of ayanamsa for KP users.
It's easiest to use a value for a epoch of choice and apply the precessional correction. I can email you the facsimiles of Dr.Balachandran’s article from the 2003 Yearbook if you want. The maths in it are not hard, just tedious. It also includes the ayanamsa table for April 15th of each year. I will email you for the copy of that one page so you can let me know then. [If anyone else wants this please PM me through Skyscript.]
For Jan 1, 1900 the value is 22-22-16 using 50.2388475 arcseconds precessional correction per year. KPNA uses another adjustment derived from an arithmetic series summation concept with a calendar year base to make everything balance with KSK's ayanamsa value and zero date, but it's inconsequential over a century or two. It's like .00011... per year. A quick note, the Astro Sage calculator is an arc minute to low for KPNA.

Addendum:
Forgot to mention, you can set a custom ayanamsa in most astro-programs. In Solar Fire select Sidereal (Vedic) as the default zodiac under preferences. So go to edit preferences, under 'zodiac' select 'sidereal (vedic)' then you can under ayanamsa for sidereal charts. choose the SVP 00°Ar00'00'' item, and selecting and entering the ayanamsa value into the SVP (sidereal vernal point) on 1st January 1900 in the 'textbox' just below.
Angles may be entered in ddd-mm-ss (337-37-44 for KPNA) or using zodiacal sign (07 Pi 37 44 for KPNA).

Martin: I have a few minor comments but no disagreements on what you said. Thanks for the clarifications.