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Divorce?
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 560

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I would look at both natal charts with transits, progressions, synastry and so on.
Why bother with a horary chart here?
And I read in your question a personal interest to reunite with a former lover.

Best to you,
Ouranos
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Challenger007



Joined: 29 Oct 2020
Posts: 24

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AmeliaS wrote:
ashwsh wrote:
For the sake of clarity, if the spouse who wants a divorce should consider good aspects like trine/sextile to be as yes or no to their question? I am wondering how would it be checked in the chart.


Bonatti has answered such questions as "Whether or not a servant may be freed from servitude" (see Liber Astronomiae, part 4). He considered a good aspect with the MC Lord or the Sun (both significators of masters) a good sign, because the master would agree to give the servant (slave) what he wanted, which was to go free.

If we agree with this, then we say that when a Querent wants a divorce, their significators being friendly with the Descendant Lord or even other planets are likely to be fortunate. The 10th house, for example, could represent the authorities or courts, and marriage is a legal matter. If the authorities sympathise with the Querent's cause, the divorce should come easy.

It's very tricky, cause we all know in decumbiture charts the last thing we want is a good aspect with good mutual reception between Lord 8 and the Querent! But I do think an estranged/unwanted spouse quite different from disease or death. You can't reason with disease or death, either they come and wreak havoc or they don't exist. But people are different. And Bonatti thinks a good aspect with the person, helps forge some agreement. I must confess that I have little experience with divorce charts, so it's just an attempt at finding some logic.

Amelia



The complexity of the divorce process does not depend on whether the stars are formed today or not, but on how angry people in marriage are at each other and how much they are attached to material values.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The complexity of the divorce process does not depend on whether the stars are formed today or not, but on how angry people in marriage are at each other and how much they are attached to material values.


Stars impel, they don't compel. You have always 'free will' to choose other paths like psychology forums.
J.P. Morgan once famously said that millionaires don't need astrologers, but billionaires do. J.P. Morgan thought there was more to the market than timing, and he used astrologers to help guide him in that timing in his businesses and investments. He's not alone.

Cool
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ashwsh



Joined: 16 Mar 2021
Posts: 33

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:
Personally, I would look at both natal charts with transits, progressions, synastry and so on.
Why bother with a horary chart here?
And I read in your question a personal interest to reunite with a former lover.

Best to you,
Ouranos


Hey Ouranos,

Maybe you mistook me for someone else. I have no former lover in mind :-).
I will post the chart in a couple of days (I'm less than 30days on the forum; based on guidelines not permitted to share a chart before that) of someone who wants to get out of a marriage, is very keen on seeking her freedom, but I saw so many trines and sextiles in the chart so wondered if a divorce was going to happen at all?
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 550
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I share the concerns of Ouranous. What exactly is your interest here? Again I would strongly suspect that you have designs on one of these people. If so then the question would not be about their divorce but would be about whether you and the desired will get together. If someone is asking you as an astrologer for a reading - which does not seem to be the case - then they would be signified by the ASC.

The confusion here is because we don't know your motivation. How would their divorce effect you? Would it be beneficial or detrimental to you? Which one of the couple are you closest to? If the person is your friend, then I'd look to see where your friendship is heading. In that case I'd look at the ASC and the 11th house. If the person you're closest to is a sibling I'd look at the ASC and the 3rd house.

I cannot emphasize this enough. The querent has to have an interest in the question. You cannot ask a question for someone else. They can ask you to do a chart as an astrologer, and they can ask for your help with their own chart, but you cannot ask a question that leaves you out of the question.

Again, what is your interest here? Why are you asking this question?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1170

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Members,

Please reread the initial post and then the new posts from 2021. These are different people asking questions. The new posts do not even mention a former lover and whoever posted this in 2006 may not even be a member anymore, so asking what their motivation is 15 years later isn't likely to get any answers. I agree that sometimes horary questions from a querent can bring up moral dilemmas though. An astrologer has the right to turn away such questions that are posed to them and make them uncomfortable (I know I would).
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ashwsh



Joined: 16 Mar 2021
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkF wrote:
I share the concerns of Ouranous. What exactly is your interest here? Again I would strongly suspect that you have designs on one of these people. If so then the question would not be about their divorce but would be about whether you and the desired will get together. If someone is asking you as an astrologer for a reading - which does not seem to be the case - then they would be signified by the ASC.

The confusion here is because we don't know your motivation. How would their divorce effect you? Would it be beneficial or detrimental to you? Which one of the couple are you closest to? If the person is your friend, then I'd look to see where your friendship is heading. In that case I'd look at the ASC and the 11th house. If the person you're closest to is a sibling I'd look at the ASC and the 3rd house.

I cannot emphasize this enough. The querent has to have an interest in the question. You cannot ask a question for someone else. They can ask you to do a chart as an astrologer, and they can ask for your help with their own chart, but you cannot ask a question that leaves you out of the question.

Again, what is your interest here? Why are you asking this question?


Hello Mark,

Please be assured that the querent asked the question here and will be the ascendant. Made an attempt a few years ago to walk out of the marriage, but didn't have enough self-confidence but now she feels she can't do this anymore and really looks forward to her freedom.
The least one can be, is to be supportive of someone who wants to reclaim their life. Hope you understand.

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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 550
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ash,

Did your friend explicitly ask you to do a horary chart for them? Or did that person just ask you for some advice and you decided to do a chart for them?

Overall I'd say that in order to show signs of a divorce, a chart would have to show two or more signs of separation. Life follows Newton's laws too. An object at rest will stay at rest until an outside force acts on it. An inconclusive chart will show the marriage continuing, though perhaps not in a great condition.

Let me give an example. The same chart can show two different outcomes based on the situation when the chart was made. Suppose some guy just met a woman and he's smitten with her. He wants to know if something serious will come of it and he does a horary. The chart shows the ASC ruler separating from a trine with the 7th house ruler with no reception. They probably will not get married. Suppose another guy had been married for twenty years and was not sure about the state of his marriage and he does a chart. The chart shows the same thing, the ASC ruler separating from the 7th house ruler with no reception. Given the inertia of a twenty year marriage this is unlikely to show a divorce. They may be growing apart but not enough to get a divorce. You would need to see perhaps one or both significators retrograde, slow, afflicted by either Saturn or Mars, one or both of the significators in their fall or detriment, etc. in order to get a divorce.

I think that these rules apply more in larger issues such as marriage and divorce. For a smaller question such as when will the pay check arrive (when you already know that you will get paid) it doesn't require as many signs. John Frawley did that chart about when will the repair man arrive. The chart showed the ruler of the 6th house at the end of the 5th house about to cross into the 6th house - the workman was going back home and was not arriving at Frawley's house that day.

In larger questions like health, marriage, children my understanding is that there has to be several signs to show the outcome that is asked about.
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ashwsh



Joined: 16 Mar 2021
Posts: 33

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkF wrote:
Ash,

Did your friend explicitly ask you to do a horary chart for them? Or did that person just ask you for some advice and you decided to do a chart for them?

Overall I'd say that in order to show signs of a divorce, a chart would have to show two or more signs of separation. Life follows Newton's laws too. An object at rest will stay at rest until an outside force acts on it. An inconclusive chart will show the marriage continuing, though perhaps not in a great condition.

Let me give an example. The same chart can show two different outcomes based on the situation when the chart was made. Suppose some guy just met a woman and he's smitten with her. He wants to know if something serious will come of it and he does a horary. The chart shows the ASC ruler separating from a trine with the 7th house ruler with no reception. They probably will not get married. Suppose another guy had been married for twenty years and was not sure about the state of his marriage and he does a chart. The chart shows the same thing, the ASC ruler separating from the 7th house ruler with no reception. Given the inertia of a twenty year marriage this is unlikely to show a divorce. They may be growing apart but not enough to get a divorce. You would need to see perhaps one or both significators retrograde, slow, afflicted by either Saturn or Mars, one or both of the significators in their fall or detriment, etc. in order to get a divorce.

I think that these rules apply more in larger issues such as marriage and divorce. For a smaller question such as when will the pay check arrive (when you already know that you will get paid) it doesn't require as many signs. John Frawley did that chart about when will the repair man arrive. The chart showed the ruler of the 6th house at the end of the 5th house about to cross into the 6th house - the workman was going back home and was not arriving at Frawley's house that day.

In larger questions like health, marriage, children my understanding is that there has to be several signs to show the outcome that is asked about.


Yes, the person asked me to a Horary. Honestly, I do not know how good are third-party horary results. When the ascendant themselves asks a question I feel it is more likely to give a genuine outcome. So in this case I asked her to ask the question when it is really strong on her mind and note the time and location. I'm trying to learn horary but still have limited knowledge.
I will post the chart as soon as I am in the clear so that we can discuss my observations plus gather more inputs.
Thank you very much for bearing with me.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Learning horary can be daunting at first, but this site and others are a great resource. William Lilly is great because he gives example charts. Besides the fact that Lilly's 17th century language takes some getting used to, most every chart that I've done doesn't look like one of his examples. Lilly's examples are good for learning how he thought. Take for example the article that Tanit linked to in my chart about whether I'll be forced to move Lilly on Moving I know it's not about your particular question but in there you see the typical way Lilly handles a question. I've always thought that he doesn't give every single possible way a chart can say yes or no, though he his pretty comprehensive. No, he tries to give examples of how he thinks and from that you can learn how to read the charts that come your way.

Deb Houlding has written about when to cast a chart. She's said that you do the chart for when you as the astrologer understands the question and in particular when you understand which houses will be involved. With that in mind, if someone asked me to cast a chart for them about the state of their marriage I would have done the chart for the time when they asked me. The friend would have been the ASC, the spouse the 7th house, etc. I am not sure about asking the person to wait until the person felt really strongly about it. In a way your friend has already asked the question at the time when you first discussed it. My personal experience has been that my own charts are more clear right after I've received some big (usually bad) news. My own charts are much less clear when I've had a random thought about something that's bothered me.

I'll give some examples of that. I had a fight with a friend. That's a good time to do a chart about the friendship. I'm idling about wondering if an old friend will call. That's not the best time to do a chart because there was no precipitating incident. I get a job offer. That's a good time to cast a chart to see if the employer is stable. I take to my sick bed. That's a good time do do a chart. I'm in general worried about my health without any specific symptoms. That's perhaps not a good time to do a chart. This is my personal experience although John Frawley contradicts this. He says that you can do a chart anytime you want.

Related to all of this is the general rule that almost everyone agrees on, and that is that you should not ask the same question twice. That is probably the biggest temptation that beginners face, especially with their own personal questions.
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Knightinte



Joined: 22 Nov 2017
Posts: 86

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have one question: to have a divorce, isn't it necessary to have concluded official marriage?

And to be divorce there, isn`t it necessary to have one or more of slowly planets? (Saturn, Uranus, Pluto) in 7th house? Also mutable ASC-DSC (Pisces, Gemini, Sagittarius and Virgo)? This is what I know. But if someone knows different things and rules, please share them. Thanks.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone wants a divorce versus someone asking if they will break up with someone they want to reconcile, I would view these charts differently. An example is with a hard aspect to Saturn, I would expect the person who wants a divorce will expect delays in getting one and the person who does not want one would have disappointment and frustations in attempting to stay married. Some horary astrologers use positive aspects as "yes" and negatives as "no" in general but it doesn't usually work that way in practice. If I were trying to get rid of something or to end something, I would expect a waning Moon to be more auspicious too, since that is a common belief in the occult in general. For gains, a waxing Moon is generally more auspicious. Yes, Uranus aspects can show major changes, as can Mars, but often they are more upsetting. It is possible to have a peaceful divorce. If I were asking about a peaceful separation, I would expect the 7th lord to be friendly and even receive me because they want to honor what I want. Think of it like a court battle, would you want the 7th house person to oppose you when you battle them or would you rather they be friendly?
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ashwsh



Joined: 16 Mar 2021
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

So here is the chart, some change in circumstances, so the question was asked again after 4 months. Though the decision to get divorced has not changed.
Ascendant wants the divorce, the husband does not. He wants to keep the child, money everything.
She is mercury in her 10th. Her only saving grace right now financially is her job. If she has that well, she may be hand to mouth in her expenses but will be able to manage. Moon in 7th, she cares about him, but does not love him
He is Jupiter (R), he is working hard to continue to save the marriage, sun in the dignity of the moon is another indicator of that.
Sun and Moon both sextile Uranus. She is expecting a lot of opposition coming her way, plus the financial hardships that will follow after the divorce.
Thoughts, please.

Edited to add:
Question here was: will we get divorced?

https://i.postimg.cc/kg2NNcKt/get-divorced-hr.jpg
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Last edited by ashwsh on Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashwsh, I don't know what your horary question was but as far as divorce proceedings, the outcome/ruling would favor the querent in the chart with the 1st lord dignified in the 10th and conjunct the NN.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 560

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting to find a post started in 2006 with Mutable significators and Angles.
One wonders what prevented them to finalize their divorce. I hope they were not waiting for the judgments of astrologers. Smile
The Part of Marriage is conjunct Jupiter R L7 in the fallen 6th
I suggest we wait a little longer.
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