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When will I meet a new man?
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: When will I meet a new man? Reply with quote

Hi!

I've been working on this chart for nearly a week and I'm still stumped.

When will I meet a new man?
4 March 2007
2.17 pm GMT
London

Asc 8 deg Leo

Querent ruled by Sun, Moon & Venus - 7th house ruled by retro Saturn in the first house. Could this be an ex returning?

The receptions show Saturn is very fond of the Sun and being in the 1st house is is quite keen on her. Sun, Moon and Venus on the other hand doesn't show any interest in Saturn other than being in the fall of Venus - so she hates him (?) Jupiter is the interest.

As far as the aspects go Saturn applies to trine Jupiter, Venus trines Jupiter, Sun squares Jupiter before Venus and Saturn form a trine. Are the first three aspects a prohibition? And what may Jupiter be in this chart? I know we don't use the outers but as the Sun is applying to conjunct Uranus has this any significance?

I was inclined to say she would meet someone in 6 time units but can't decide if Jupiter is a problem or suggests a sexual or 'fun' relationship with an ex.

Thanks!
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Yikkes!



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 305

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK My pennies worth.

You are Leo he is Aquarius.

Mars on cusp of Aquarius. So that means Men Men Men Sick

Mars rules MC so a man from your public position.

However, Aquarius is ruled by Saturn. So this man is going to be hard to get hold of because he opposes himself.

But Saturn is slowing now.

I think you fancy somebody at your work.

Don't see any link between you and him.

Also Sag incepted in 5th which means "fun" is a bit blocked.

I think the way the planets are "a good while" for everybody.
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Yikkes!
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yikkes!

Thank you for taking a look at the chart. Thumbs up

The querent works alone from home and doesn't have any colleagues to fancy!

I was taught by John Frawley and Mars doesn't signify 'man' - the Sun does but as this is taken by the querent it can't be used.

There are three planets that represent the querent in this question and Venus (being woman) trines Saturn so there is a link.

I've used Regiomontanus houses and the fifth house isn't intercepted.
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astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scorpio711,

Does the Ascendant or his Lord describe you? You need to verify if its a suitable chart before you go interpreting it. The easiest way is to see if the Ascendant/Lord describes the person asking(physically especially).
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not my question but even if it was I don't see that it is relevant. Lilly found this useful when the Ascendant was in an early or late degree of its sign or when he needed to convince the client of his abilities. In this day of computers its not necessary and its not something I tend to look at. John Frawley says there's no need to describe the querent, although sometimes people might ask for a description of the quesited.

There is nothing in this chart that says it can't be read!
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astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Its not my question but even if it was I don't see that it is relevant.


It is quite relevant, if the Ascendant does not describe the Querent, then the chart is not radical and not fit ot be judged. Remember there are Significators in these Charts, one of the Querent and one of the Quesited. If the Significators of the Querent do not describe the Querent, then how will the chart be accurate?

Quote:
In this day of computers its not necessary and its not something I tend to look at.


What does the advancment of computer technology have anything to do with deteriming if the chart will be accurate or not?

Quote:
John Frawley says there's no need to describe the querent, although sometimes people might ask for a description of the quesited.


If theres no need to describe the Querent, how exactly do you know if the Chart you cast is accurate? I think thats quite important and to overlook that is quite negligent on the part of the Astrologer reading.
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to have to beg to differ here. If you read every chart in this way and let every consideration stop you from reading a chart you'd never answer any questions.

The chart should be accurate as long as it is drawn up at the time the astrologer understood the question - which this one was. You can't just throw the question out because it doesn't describe the querent - its an added bonus if it does but its not necessary! I've answered hundreds of questions without taking this into consideration and they haven't all been wrong - in fact far from it.

None of the considerations before judgement actually stop you reading a chart, and this isn't even one of them. I was taught every chart can be judged. Its your choice if you want to continue to use these excuses as a reason not to make a judgement. I don't hand draw my charts. I spent 200 on Janus, I expect its as accurate as it can be!

If John Frawley is a negligent astrologer (and I passed his course) then I am happy to follow in his footsteps.
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astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every consideration? There are 2-3 tests which you can do to determine if the Chart is radical and fit to be judged which take a few seconds to analyze. It has nothing to do with getting the correct time, it has to do if the question is fit to be judged during that time or if the chart will be accurate in its judgment. It doesnt matter what software you use or anything. When I state "accurate" I am not refering to the accurate placements in the chart but the interpretations that will be gained from it. Secondly, I never called anyone negligent, I said it was quite negligent on the part of the Astrologer to pass over determining whether the chart should be read or not.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the Considerations Lilly spelled out are very important to use even today. I had a look at your chart, and there are two things which may make reading the chart troublesome:

First, the Lord of the Hour (Venus) and the Ascendant are not compatible. Although this is a relatively 'minor' discrepancy, in my experience with charts where the Lord of the Hour/Ascendant match, versus the 'unmatched' ones, the 'matched' ones work much better.

Second, the Moon is Void of Course in the chart. At 20 degrees Virgo, it is a long, long time before it makes another aspect; in fact it will have to cross into Libra before beginning to aspect the major planets.

Being that there are two things in the chart that do not 'add up', I would suggest that there may be something 'missing' from the question. IMO.

Cheers,
Gunhilde
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lilly has more than two or three considerations so what makes the ones you pick to consider any more or less important than the others? Who are we to test the chart? There is nothing in this chart that suggests its not radical. Saturn may be in the first house but it is a relationship question and Saturn rules the 7th house but that's about it.

Quote:
If theres no need to describe the Querent, how exactly do you know if the Chart you cast is accurate? I think thats quite important and to overlook that is quite negligent on the part of the Astrologer reading.


John Frawley overlooks it and this is where I learnt what I know. You may not have used his name but you are questioning what he teaches which is your perogative, of course. This is precisely why he doesn't - look how much time is spent pfaffing on deciding whether the chart can be read or not?! Just read it and then make a decision as to whether it makes sense or not in the context of the question.

The querent has asked a relatively simple question involving the first and seventh houses. She split up with her boyfriend two years ago and he is now in contact with her. She hasn't had a boyfriend since then and asked when she will meet someone new but the chart is suggesting the person that will enter her life could be someone who is returning which is signified by Saturn being retrograde. Why isn't that enough confirmation that the chart is radical?

The receptions show she is very interested in Jupiter - Jupiter rules the 5th and 9th houses. The 5th rules sex and the 9th may have to do with the fact he lives a long way away from her which she confirmed. Sun conjunt Uranus in the 9th house may suggest something sudden and unexpected. What I wanted to know is whether Jupiter applying to Saturn by trine, Venus applying to Jupiter by trine and Sun applying to square Jupiter were prohibiting the Venus trine Saturn aspect or do they fit into the question? That's all! Saturn being in the 1st house and ruled by the querents planet shows he 'loves' her which immediately renders his planet weak by being in his own detriment.

As far as I am concerned this chart is fit to be judged without knowing what the querent looks like.

This quote comes from JF's book The Horary Textbook page 141 - 'There are astrologers who make much of them (the considerations), deliberating long over whether a chart is 'radical', by which they mean 'capable of being judged'. These astrologers have their own translation of that famous Hermetic dictum, running 'As above, as every now and again so below'. Every chart can be judged. Astrology does not stop working'.

I'm not suggesting the way you read your charts is wrong but its not how I read mine, every astrologer has their own methods which work for them, no one has ever learned anything by not questioning someone else's methods.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As far as I am concerned this chart is fit to be judged.


Well, IMO there may be a reason you were having trouble reading the chart. You asked other people to help you with the chart. With respect, some of us have tried to offer suggestions, which you don't seem to care for, so why bother asking, really?

Cheers,
Gunhilde
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Gunhilde for looking at the chart.

As for the Lord of the hour and day - again JF dispenses with this, he states after years of wasted time they have no purpose in horary. Everyone is perfectly entitled to disagree! Very Happy

I looked at the Moon being void as showing nothing will happen regarding meeting a 'new' man but the chart is showing an 'old' one, it doesn't necessarily give the final answer. Its very likely nothing will come of the matter due to the fact its an ex and she says she does not want to 'go there'.

What do you mean that something may be 'missing' from the question? From speaking with her she is fed up being alone and wants some fun. The question came about because her ex contacted her again and she decided she wants a new relationship not rekindle an old one. I initially thought she would meet someone but the more I look at this chart its not going to be someone new. If the aspects in the chart are a prohibition then its not going to happen anyway despite any of the considerations that have been brought up.
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My main reason for asking for a second opinion was regarding prohibition as I'm not entirely sure if that is what is being shown in the chart and I'd still like to know for future reference.

The chart has been dismissed due to not knowing what the querent looks like and whether the Lord of the Hour and Day agree - which I was taught has little bearing on it. Moon being void of course doesn't render the chart unreadable only that nothing may come of the matter - the run up to nothing happening will still be in the chart. The whole point of asking for help is to clarify what you know or don't know. It doesn't mean I don't respect what you've suggested, you've just been taught differently to me. I was taught to make a judgement one way or the other and that is what I am trying to do. Lilly often pushed his charts beyond the rules, there will always be exceptions and they too have to be considered - IMHO.

If a subject can't be debated without people taking offence there's not much point having a forum to discuss the subject in the first place! All I've done is weighed up what has been said against what I have been taught - that does not make me the bad guy. 'Mix discretion with art', I believe Lilly said.

Thanks for taking the time out to look at the chart and to comment, it is much appreciated.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought your take was pretty spot-on, actually; that it would be a former someone returning, rather than a 'new' one. That *is* probably what the VOC moon is saying.

Sometimes when I struggle to read a chart I put it down for awhile because most of the time the answer pops right out at me; when it doesn't it's usually because I've missed something in the question or the querent's intention. That's what I meant about something being 'missing' from the chart, I guess.

I don't mind the disagreements; I learn an awful lot about astrology from them! Very Happy

Cheers,
Gunhilde
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Scorpio 711,

I think your evaluation of the chart is quite correct. The VOC Moon shows things will trundle along as they are, i.e. nothing new will happen, and that R Saturn in the first looks a perfect picture of an ex coming back to her. So your judgement has to be "You want a fun affair, but there's no new man on the horizon just yet. PS Your ex is quite determined to come back"... Probably not what she wants to hear...!!

I've never used hour rulers as a "consideration before judgement". Neither have I looked to describe the querent from Lord 1. I do think it's important to notice dodgy-looking bits in the chart, such as Neptune on an angle or important house cusp, or a late Asc. But as you say, they are still "considerations", not rules set in stone. I would agree that a "dodgy"-looking chart tends to be less accurate than a straightforward one, but you can still attempt to judge it, of course. Just don't expect a good, clear answer from it!

I don't think your chart has any "considerations" in it. The VOC Moon is an important testimony in itself!

I think the problem you had is that while you saw the answer quite clearly in the chart, it wasn't the one the querent wanted, and so you hesitated Smile we've all done that before!

Keren
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