46
aquirata wrote:Gabe,
I wonder how hard it would be to hunt down that J.D. North book
The book is listed but not available at Amazon, and, according to FetchBook, AbeBooks used to have a couple of copies available a few weeks ago. BookFinder couldn't locate any copies. May also be available from the Warburg Institute or the author.
OK, it'll be something to think about.
Part of my argument here would be "Does it need to be rational?"
No, it doesn't in general. For me, it does.
Maybe you need to examine that? Please don't take this as a slam, because I'm not intending to give offense, and I apologize in advance if you take it badly.
I also think we are running into trouble when we think of astrology as a science, like chemistry or physics is a science. It is certainly not a modern science, since there is no plausible material causation. There are, of course, other levels of causation, but they are not in the purview of modern science. I'm not sure we can get the same kind of statistically verifiable data as in these sciences because of this.
Well, this is a big subject, but I do disagree with you here. I am personally conducting the kind of statistical research you speak of, and the evidence is unquestionably there. The first phase of research in a program of about 2,400 phases is complete, and I am writing the article for publication. The abstract and intro are done, working on the rest at present. This particular work is not about the houses by the way.
I do remember that you posted on that subject on Skyscript before. My concern would be that any statistical presentation without the presence of a defining material cause will not be taken seriously by most if not all scientists, no matter the robustness of the study. Anyway, we will get to see it when you finally get it out. Good luck.
Gabe

47
Hi Gabe,
Maybe you need to examine that?
Yes of course, from a personal point of view. As I have always said, I'm not an astrologer, just a student in astrology. Lots of room to grow. :)
My concern would be that any statistical presentation without the presence of a defining material cause will not be taken seriously by most if not all scientists, no matter the robustness of the study.
Has happened before, certainly, and could happen again. Let me, however, quote Carl Sagan here, who, as an eminent astronomer and a non-believer in astrology, has some authority on the subject:

"That we can think of no mechanism for astrology is relevant but unconvincing. No mechanism was known, for example, for continental drift when it was proposed by Wegener. Nevertheless, we see that Wegener was right, and those who objected on the grounds of unavailable mechanism were wrong." (From his letter to the Humanist, in response to the 'Objections to Astrology' statement, Sep/Oct 1975)
Anyway, we will get to see it when you finally get it out. Good luck.
Thanks, and I hope to finish the article soon now. Done with the Procedures section, working on Results. Discussion should be a breeze, and it's pretty well complete at that time. So 2 weeks?
Peter

Re: Krusinski house system

51
hadrisnus wrote: The passage in Manilius that discusses the eight houses is a bit intriging and I was wandering how was it interpreted to end up in a system of twelve
In the Antiochus material (translation available here http://www.projecthindsight.com/), he mentions both a twelve topic and an eight topic system(with the topics shown by the 8 signs starting at the rising sign). I forget off hand, but one is coming from Hermes and the other from Nechepso(?), and the topics are mostly different for each system. I don't have the book on hand, so any specific references to the CCAG will have to wait until later.
Gabe

53
According to some the concept of the 8 houses system is an erroneous interpretation in the beginning of the 20th century. Here's an article of Bill Johnston about this:
Very interesting. However, from my initial reading that doesn't appear the view taken by Robert Schmidt in his new translation of Antiochus. The new Project Hindsight translation series The Astrological Record of the Early Sages (aka ?TARES?) has a translation of the ?Introductory Matters? attributed to Antiochus.

I dont have my copy to hand right now but I will post on this when I get a chance.


Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

54
There is also an article on Patrice Guinard's site on the eight house system called The Dominion. You can find it on Skyscript Links. I rather like the idea of the last house being Death. Does have a ring of finality about it. :(

Matt

56
I think the erroneous element of the 8 topic system was the idea, probably due to Fagan and others, that:
  • 1) the topics where assigned against the order of the signs
    2) the ecliptic was itself divided by into 8 equal parts
Looking at Bill Johnston's article it seems to match what Antiochus and Bob is saying (which makes sense as Bill is part of Project Hindsight) is saying, apparently there is a misinterpolation of oktotopos into oktotropos between various sources.

A speculation has come upon me, if anybody would like to see if there appears any commonality between the 8 topic system and the Ptolemaic Questions?
Gabe

57
GR Wrote:
In the Antiochus material (translation available here http://www.projecthindsight.com/), he mentions both a twelve topic and an eight topic system(with the topics shown by the 8 signs starting at the rising sign). I forget off hand, but one is coming from Hermes and the other from Nechepso(?), and the topics are mostly different for each system. I don't have the book on hand, so any specific references to the CCAG will have to wait until later.
Here is Robert Schmidt on this issue in his initial comments on the Introductory Matters of Antiochus:
Paragraphs 24 and 25 give a brief statement of the meanings assigned to each of the topical places ( ??houses??) . It is clear from the text that the whole-sign ?houses?? is meant here. What is interesting is that there are two different systems presented. The first is a twelve-topic system in which each of the twelve places is assigned meanings. The second is an eight-topic system in which only the first eight places are used. It is only in the eight topic system that we find a correlation with members of the native?s family. It is reasonable to assume that each of these two systems has its own rationale, which must be investigated in future volumes. The list of meanings found in later Hellenistic texts are evidently a conflation of the meanings of these two different systems.
Later in his commentary on ''The Eight -Topic System of Places'' he states:
'Some scholars have tried to argue that the eight topic system originated from the bisection of the four mundane quadrants, resulting in eight places, but there is certainly no evidence for that conjecture in the present text.''
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly