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Skyscript Astrology Forum

MJ Birth time Problem
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trevor
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:00 pm    Post subject: MJ Birth time Problem Reply with quote

It seems a few times have been postulated for this pop star.

Astrodatabank gives it a DD rating and lists a few ideas around times.

Born Gary, Indiana

29/8/58

11.53PM - 16' gem ASC
12.45PM - 21' sco ASC

seem to be the 2 most well known 'guesses'.

I'd have thought this would be a simple task for astrologers to work out which is right, or almost right, or if neither are and another is. Jackson has been quite high profile for many years, there are plenty of 'events' to look at and his 'personality' is availiable to some extent as well.

Anyone have any traditional ideas on how to resolve this challenge?
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anyone have any traditional ideas on how to resolve this challenge?


How about by appearance? His physical build and dexterity are more indicative of Gemini than Scorpio.

Tom
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben's got it as 11:43 am with a AA rating at this link:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/happiness.html

Also, a lengthy discussion of Jackson's chart is here:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=549&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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trevor
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
Anyone have any traditional ideas on how to resolve this challenge?


How about by appearance? His physical build and dexterity are more indicative of Gemini than Scorpio.

Tom


Can you expand on this Tom. What's this imagined Gemini 'build'?

It wouldn't surprise me if those who prefer the Sco rising chart are factoring in the way he tends to cover his face with hair/hats and the way he is/has been trying to make his face more chiseled.
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trevor
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
Ben's got it as 11:43 am with a AA rating at this link:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/happiness.html

Also, a lengthy discussion of Jackson's chart is here:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=549&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Now I see why folks here may not have jumped into this conundrum.

It was the Dykes schema on his site that piqued my interest as I was thinking he's been tricked by the wrong chart. But has he/others?

The AA is now DD!

I have no exact memory of where the 12.45pm came from but it's been on my database for ages so probably encounterd it in the 90's , but this 'psychological' time isn't listed at astrodatabank for some reason.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd have thought this would be a simple task for astrologers to work out which is right, or almost right, or if neither are and another is. Jackson has been quite high profile for many years, there are plenty of 'events' to look at and his 'personality' is availiable to some extent as well.

Anyone have any traditional ideas on how to resolve this challenge?


Trevor, you've already pointed to this issue as an indication of inconsistency in astrological ideas, so I suspect that you don't really want to be informed about rectification prospects, as much as you would enjoy seeing contradiction in the debate.

It is interesting, for example, that you refer to this being "a simple task for astrologers" whereas most of us in this forum talk about "we" or "us".

Quote:
What's this imagined Gemini 'build'?


It is fairly consistently recorded in traditional literature - see for example CA p.94-5. I agree with Tom that Gemini rising would fit the profile, but why don't you offer up some of your own ideas before asking others to venture theirs?

Deb
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you expand on this Tom. What's this imagined Gemini 'build'?


I didn't think his build was imaginary. Why don't you find some literature on physical appearance and signs and show me where it's wrong. Otherwise see the pages in CA Deb cited. Like most skeptics you keep shifting ground

1) "Anyone have any traditional ideas on how to resolve this challenge?"

I gave you one and you said

2) "What's this imagined Gemini 'build'?

Your intentions are pretty obvious. I'm not wasting any more time on you.

Tom
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yuzuru



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Posts: 1395

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now I see why folks here may not have jumped into this conundrum.


Indeed? Because I am very surprised that anyone bothered to answer a "conundrum" that is no conundrum at all. There is only what you think, a lack of willingness to heard other people´s opinion, and a lack of honesty about the topic you made, as your attempts to "trap" forum members in a discussion about topics is very cristal clear.

As you showed again in again, in several different threads, you don´t really want to discuss astrology, you want to discuss a "proof" of astrology, but only if it is a proof that you would agree, and in your own terms, like statistics of psychology.

So, if you want to discuss these themes, open a thread in the Phylosophy area, and be explicit about what you want, instead of inventing conundrums:

"I don´t believe in rectification, can anyone prove me wrong?"

Then, it is the problem of members if they want to bother prove someone right or wrong. I personally don´t care if you belive in astrology, or in any branch of astrology technique.

You may think that you are being open and clear, but even the way you write is a clear indication that you are not interested in the topic, but you want to lead people into your own discussion, or to prove them wrong.

To me this is trolling
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 156
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:34 am    Post subject: Rectification for Michael Jackson Reply with quote

Using 30 major events in his life, my rectification for Michael Jackson is:
Radix: 29 Aug 1958 23.29.06 CDT Asc 10Gem26'
Epoch: 22 Nov 1957 11.45.40 UT Asc 17Sco03' Moon 10Sag23'
When the birth time is unknown or there are several possible birth times, the best system to start with is PSSR.
PSSR-Progress of the Sidereal Solar Returns. This technique was discovered by Cyril Fagan 60 years ago. For each event two precessed Solar Returns are calculated: currect and converse. Secondary progressions (and regressions) of the planets and Nodes only are then derived from those two Solar Returns and we search for aspects with all factors of the chart, including the angles and house cusps.
We first use only planetary aspects, one factor (the moving factor or the radical factor) should be the Sun, Mercury, Venus or Mars and the daily travel should be above 40'.
1. On 8 Oct 1999 he divorced his wife Debbie Rowe
Starting with local noon (17.00 UT) the Solar Return, precession corrected, is calculating for 30 Aug 1999 00.14 CDT. Saturn at 17Tau11' is 90 radical Venus at 16Leo41' orb 30'. In most cases, the maximum effective orb is 11'.This means that the correct birth time should be some hours latter: orb of 11' will be only if the birth time is from 18.00 CDT to the midnight.
In this way we can find other appropriate aspects for other events:
2. On 18 Dec 2003 he was investigated by the police:
Mercury 120 Saturn in orb from 18.30 to 24.00
Saturn 60 Venus in orb from 18.30 to 24.00
3. On 28 Feb 1984 he won 8 times in Grammy
Venus 60 Jupiter in orb from 13.30 to midnight
4. On 27 Jan 1984 his hair catches fire
Mars conj. Neptune in orb from 18.00 to midnight
We can use also the regular secondary directions:
1. On Feb 2002 son was born
Venus 120 NN in orb from 20.00 to midnight.
Such an accumulation of appropriate aspects allows us to deduce that there is a high likehood that the true birth time is from 18.30 to midnight. Searching with my program Polaris with primary directions in topocentric system, the time 23.29.06 CDT is the best one.
Verification to this birth time can be achieved by using the Moon, both in PSSR and secondary.
1. 28 Feb 1984 Grammy
Secondary Moon 180 Mercury orb 0'
2. 29 Oct 1961 brother was born
Secondary Moon 180 NN orb 0'
3. 3 Apr 1998 daughter born
PSSR: Moon 0 Uranus 16'
4.29 Apr 1990 death of gr'mother
PSSR: Moon 0 Pluto 12' and Moon 60 Neptune 10'
Those astrologers who suggested Scorpio rising was right, but it is in his epoch, not in his radix!
His long history of problems and operations in his nose can be seen in his epoch: Scorpio rising and Mars conj. Neptune in 12th house.


Last edited by Isaac Starkman on Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Greenwich UK

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for settling that Isaac. I am going to look at the two charts and compare them as an exercise. Some of my friends have bought tickets to his shows in London this July but I see that there is a legal threat and doubts about his health.Do you think they will be disappointed?

Regards

Matthew
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PaulParal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Czech Republic / Canada

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it would help: after a similar discussion about the same issue at another forum in 2003, I had a brief e-mail exchange with Basil Ferrington, an astrologer who discussed the subject of this thread directly with MJ. This is what Basil had to say (I am quoting from his e-mail to me): "I have taken interest in Jackson’s concerns because I am a musician and because the timing of the story helps to define definitively the rectification of Jackson’s horoscope that I did some years ago (August 29, 1958; 11:57 PM CDT, Gary, Indiana) for Noel Tyl’s book, “Astrology Of The Famed.” I was initially given a time of “after 10:30 PM” by Jackson himself. Subsequent to that, a biography of his life was released, edited by Jackie Onassis, in which it was stated that Jackson was born very late in the evening. My initial rectification of 11:57 PM turned out to be just four minutes late; the actual time of 11:53 PM was confirmed by a Jackson representative whom I had occasion to meet."

The story Basil refers to is February/March 2003 scandal about the alleged pedophilia of MJ. Most definitely the most damaging year (so far) in the whole MJ's career.

My two bits towards the discussion.

Paul Paral
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trevor
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the 'credibility' of Fearrington's story that has been disputed,leading to it's current DD rating.

''Basil Fearrington rectifies to 11:53 PM in "Astrology of the Famed," writing in a footnote of the Introduction that "I had many opportunities to observe Michael but could not get close enough to ask him about his time of birth." On 12/31/1998, Fearrington emailed the statement that "I had occasion, while playing in the opening act for the very last Jackson tour to ask Michael what his time of birth was. He said "I will tell you as I told Jackie Onassis, all I know is that it was late in the evening, definitely after 10:30 PM." As "Astrology of the Famed" was published in 1996 and Jackson's last tour was in 1984, Fearrington leaves himself open to some question of credibility. ''

Dobyns says the times of 1.30am and 7.54am had also come from people who got the data from him.

So it's a bit tricky to be certain.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As "Astrology of the Famed" was published in 1996 and Jackson's last tour was in 1984, Fearrington leaves himself open to some question of credibility. ''


Quote:
On 12/31/1998, Fearrington emailed the statement that "I had occasion, while playing in the opening act for the very last Jackson tour to ask Michael what his time of birth was.


Jackson was on several tours after 1984 and his last one was the HIStory Tour that took place during 1996 and 1997. It's only American stop was in Hawaii. I have no idea if Fearrington was there or not or if he was outside the USA with Jackson on that tour, but if he was, it supports the Dec 31, 1998 e-mail statement.

Tom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Michael_Jackson_tours
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trevor
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plot thickens. It occured to me the astrodatabank folks could have easily checked this so do they know something we don't?
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Frank



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I know Basil Fearrington, I'm more inclined to trust his reports than to put any credence whatsoever on the opinion, baseless accusations, and quibbling of an anonymous forum poster.

The time Benjamin Dykes gives is 11:43 p.m. in that article, just 10 minutes difference from the 11:53 p.m. quoted by Fearrington. Both charts have Gemini rising, and in my opinion, this works given Jackson’s appearance.
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Last edited by Frank on Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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