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For what it?s Worth Department:

I was working with the Michael Jackson chart, using the 11:53 PM birth time for no particular reason other than it was handy, and I cast his last solar return (Aug 29 2008). I neglected to check an appropriate box in Janus and it kept casting the chart for his birthplace. When I finally figured out what I was doing wrong I managed to set it for LA, where he presumably was on his last birthday. Because of some recent discussions on this topic, I took a peek at both charts.

Cast for Gary Indiana, the birth place 17 Cancer rises and 27 Pisces is on the MC in the SR. The MC is conjunct Scheat and Robbins tells us: ?? extreme misfortune, murder, suicide, and drowning.? The ASC is between Castor and Pollux. Pollux: ? ? dignified malevolence and is connected with poisons.? Castor: ?sudden fame and honor followed by loss of fortune and disgrace (fits his earlier life), sickness trouble and great affliction.?

If we cast the return for LA, we find the natal angles are virtually identical to those in the nativity, which is an indication of a very significant year. It implies that the potential of the chart will be realized this year or some part of it. Death is part of it. As for early or unexpected death, I seem to recall Morin (I think it was Morin, he?s all I?ve been reading lately) saying the ruler of the ASC in hard aspect to a debilitated malefic indicates a violent death. Saturn is in no great state in Sagittarius and he opposes the MC, which does not portend well for long life. But why this year?

We have a Mercury ? Mars square in the nativity and a Mercury Mars conjunction in the return. In both cases Mars is in detriment. Although Morin would hate this, Saturn, Lord 8 is combust in the return.


Superficially at least, we have grounds for using both locations.

Tom
Last edited by Tom on Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vedic chart

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the Vedic chart really supports the 11:53 birthtime, however, the 12:45 is a much stronger natal chart.

the dasa period for the 12:45 time would have been a fruitful time for him recently, but as we all know, he hasn't had an easy time of life in the past few years.

I'm new to the forum, thanks for having me.

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I really don't know how well Vedic Astrology is accepted here, but here goes...

Interestingly, Mercury is a detriment planet, in the East and the West, as I've read here.

Mercury is the lord of the eighth from the Moon for the Taurus ascendant for the 11:53 chart in the Hindu (sidereal) system. Mercury is also the 2nd lord in the chart, a maraka, or death/hardship indicator, along with the seventh house lord. (odd for such a songbird, i think, to have Mercury as a detriment) The fact that Mercury is in the 4th with the Sun in Leo cannot be overlooked here. His heart gave out.

The operating dasa at the time was Ketu(south node)/ Rahu(north node)/Mercury...this is an extremely time-sensitive calculation, but we are all going on an assumed birthtime. In MJ's navamsa, or nine-fold divisional chart, Ketu is in the eighth house, with Rahu in the 2nd, Virgo, ruled, of course, by Mercury. There is a 'health' issue; and clearly there is an exacerbation by the 'foods' or 'medicine' he was taking. Look at his 11th house: bad friends, 'doctors', his own will as to who he kept close. He had problems but he had the resources to keep people who 'fed' his 'will' close to him. Although he loved children, Jupiter was a 'problem' for his life, evidenced by Jupiter in the sixth as the twelfth from Saturn and opposite Mars, in his own sign, in the twelfth...legal problems and debts accordingly.

The main problem i have for the 1153 chart is the inactivity for the first house, be it aspect or otherwise. The lord of the first (sidereal) is Venus and she is in the 3rd with the third lord, Moon, in the 10th. She is aspected by square, or Mars' aspects, and Ketu, by trine, but still a detriment (which will explain the skin issues, nose too). Okay. That leaves us with only a Saturn aspect to the first house. As huge as he was, really? Just a Saturn aspect and 'possibly' a Rahu aspect to the first house. Really?

This comes up in the John Lennon chart as well. ASC or DSC as ASC?!! MJ's 12:45p chart is stronger natally, but EVERYTHING else supports the 23:53 chart.

I'll stand by the 23:53 chart as long as I do astrology. It SPEAKS to me. Astrology after the fact is just speculation anyway. I'm also, I guess, as a person who saw the debut of 'Thriller', after 9pm, on MTV, just trying to make sense of the fact that Pop culture will ultimately eat itself and not apologize. Rightly so. We as the world asked for it. The formative memories we have ultimately will implode...

thanks, kyle

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Hi
I have been looking at MJ's charts working with the 11:53 birthtime. Tom, you say that the angles in solar return are virtually identical to his natal. I cast his solar return for LA and get 17 cancer on ASC and his natal has 16 gemini on ASC-did I cast my SR chart wrong?
His hyleg is the moon[Bonatti] and it is his profected Lord of the Year, inconjunct his natal moon which is square natal saturn which is the ruler of his 8th house as well as it being the ruler of his Solar return[if I got it right] Would this be a strong enough indication of death?
I cast an event chart for his death at 2:26 in LA and Mercury is at 15 gemini in the 8th house [His natal ASC is 16 gemini] and it is square Saturn in 11th[death by a friend?]
Im seeing hints at his death but I have not yet found the definitive clue! Look forward to seeing what you all see

Michael Jackson't birth time

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Hi... this is my first entry so be gently with me... :???:

Far be it from me to throw yet another time into the mix for Michael Jackson's TOB, but I had been working on 10.00 (Gary time). Gives an Asc of 19.36 Libra and an MC of 23.07 Cancer.

At first I thought this crazy... but think about it. Venus, chart ruler, conjunct Uranus denoting Jackson's unusual dress sense... and the conjunction being in Leo, suggests his penchant for gold garb, royal clothing, heraldry, golden braid etc. Also being in Leo, worth noting his child-like qualities. Remember too, he was known as the King of Pop (Venus-Uranus in Leo!) On a health note, the Libran Asc gives his the potential for issues surrounding his back, lower/lumber region which I beleive he had. Chart ruler of Venus generally gives a fair skin tone, which clearly he contrived to achieve (conjunct Uranus trine Saturn.... ground breaking even!) Note also that this timing put the Venus -Uranus angular in the 10th.

Secondly the MC, yes one would consider Cancer inapporpriate, but he did come to fame in the Jackson 5 - part of his family. The Moon in the 5th house of performing/arts. Note also that the MC is conjunct the Fixed Star of Pollux which Robson describes as "Honour and preferment, but danger of disgrace and ruin". (FS pg 186)

This timing would also put Neptune (and Jupiter) in the first. Clearly this suggests his hugely compassionate and altruistic nature. Whether one acknoweldges (or believes) what he did or did not do with children, one cannot ignore his deeply spiritual outlook, and if anything he was clearly lacked judgement and whilst he was gullible, and prone to decepetion, one cannot ignore that he was probably in reality kidding himself most of all. On a more practical level... Neptune in the first... yes suggests the glamour, the make-up but also the mask. (which he literally wore!) It would also suggest his links with drugs, whether prescribed or other. Note also that the Moon in Pisces by Antiscia will conjunct his Asc... undoubtedly giving him his sensitivity, and an affintiy with his public.

I would also mention that this time does put his Asc and Node applying to Spica, which I will leave you to examine. Both Ebertin and Robson suggests riches beyond wildest dreams...

Thirdly, this timing brings a grand trine of Chiron, Hygeia to the Asc in Air.. suggests his extraordinary inventive even genius, but not without pain and lessons.

These are all just points which I came to on examining his chart. Clearly there are lots of different times out there.. but believe me Scopio rising he ain't.

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(Hello everybody from another first-timer. :D)

Michael Jackson appears to be a tough nut to break. Irrespective of the fact the birthdates were mostly written in 1958, this one remains hidden, and Michael himself did nothing to uncover it neither to help others to solve this. Michael's quote as "after 10.30 pm" is the same as nothing. So, we're in fog yet.

There are some very different birth times quoted in this topic. So far, searching is limited between 23:53 and 23:29, with many confirmations. But, if I know MJ's story (childhood etc.) and I look at his chart, it simply does not fit to me ? father, hiding, money earning, trials and other issues.
There was a Scorpio rising mentioned on this forum and rejected immediately, as "impropriate". How come? Did Michael not ruin his appearance, face, skin color and all, as much as nobody did? If Scorpio means "general change", what is Michael's change other than general? I would not reject it so fast ?

I have developed my own solar return timing technique during last 18 years and went to check these birth times, using available bio information. With no available data for his residence before buying and moving to Neverland, Los Olivos, Ca, I limited to events after 1988. I was not satisfied with findings, which did not match my usual work and results with my clients; some events seem to happen a bit earlier, other a bit later. I found Michael's 23:29 chart a bit more fitting than 23:53 or 23:43.

After a pause I continued from zero, trying to make o profile. A nice game, pure joy. Where a father we are frightened of should be put in the horoscope? In the 8th. And Pluto. 7th in Cancer and Uranus inside both fit, too. 2nd marriage, a quick one (VE 0 UR) and is abroad. Neptunian outcome? Possible. Mars on the 4th cusp, squared ? aggressive father. Money? House rulers are placed in the 9th, not bad aspected, and Moon in the 2nd ("plenty of money running through these hands". According to Carol Rushman, 3 aspects of Mercury, 5th ruler, before leaving Leo = 3 children. The time is 17:35 in this case.
Then I got a phone call from a friend I discussed this matter before, and he said "Try with 12:12, I found this time repeatedly". Well, I was careful, but the finding took my breath.
Here is Scorpio rising ? again. No Scorpio look? How could it be? There is Mercury right on MC (question of seconds in time of birth!) and ASC-ruler is conjoined with Sun in 10th, and Sun is in mutual reception with Mercury, not mentioning full and very strong 10th, thus a rich portion of a Capricorn ? can we still expect a Scorpio look? This chart is full of hiding: Jupiter is "happy when away from other's eyes" etc. and Neptune in 12th is "living in his own world" ? is there anybody else who made "his own world" so much realistic? - And money? Saturn in 2nd is apparently misleading. I'd rather connect it with lack of self-confidence than with money itself, but anyway it is trined with Mercury 0 MC and 2nd ruler, Jupiter, is placed in 12th ? nobody in the world shared as much money for charity as MJ. This Jupiter is strong and is not badly aspected, so "plenty of money" is quite possible. - The last part of 9th is not favorable ? court issues, trials.
And I naturally tried to confirm this birth time with "my" solar returns, too. I tried several events and they fit, almost all and quite accurate. Incredible! 1.1.94, spring '93 Oprah show (and consequently success in career), later that year a crisis with drugs and hospital, '95/96 successes and stress-related hospital again, children and so on.

And, as there goes a saying in my country that "Every Gypsy praises his own horse", one would expect my claiming this BT is correct and my technique is the best. It's not. I spent a wonderful day with astrology being very aware that the outcome usually does not fit to all that what seems very obvious. I did not even try to confirm these "findings" with solar arcs, progressions, transits etc., as I had no time for it; I believe others will do that instead.

Sorry, if my English slips from time to time, it's not my first language. Have a good time!

Bern, Slovenia

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Tom, you say that the angles in solar return are virtually identical to his natal. I cast his solar return for LA and get 17 cancer on ASC and his natal has 16 gemini on ASC-did I cast my SR chart wrong?
Double check your settings. For the birthplace of Gary IN, I get a 2008 SR with 17 Cancer and for LA I get 14 Gemini according to Janus software. If you're using Janus once you get to the "Cast a Return Chart" dialogue box, click on "options" then click on the the box next to: "Relocate Natal Chart." If you don't click that box, it will cast the chart for the birthplace.

Michael Jackson Solar Return
12:08:16 AM PDT + 7 hrs
Los Angeles, CA USA
118 W 14 34
34 N 08
14 Gemini 17 rises

If anyone isn't gentle with newbies and I miss it, please let me know. This is a place for learning. Post ANYTHING astrological. If you make mistakes, so what? We learn nothing by being right.

Tom

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reply to Matt, kyle hope you don't mind...

Solar arc might be a useful way to equate the eastern dasa system to western astrology ? solar arc moves the entire chart forward in sync, like a logarithm. Dasas wash sequential planetary waves forward over the entire chart; the integrity of the ?fixed? planetary sequence pattern/s inherent within the dasa does not change.

In dasa system, the moon?s sidereal position at birth moment establishes the start point of a cyclical, repeating, planetary pattern.

Example: the moon begins (anchors itself sidereally) somewhere midway into Mars? 7 year cycle. Therefore this Mars cycle (dasa) continues for 3.5 more years, when the follow-on planetary cycle of the North Node dasa begins. Dasa cycles are large, overarching planetary ?umbrellas? under which the natal, transitting, and progressed planets play.

Progressions in western astrology, such as secondary,tertiary, and primary could conceivably equate to the sub cycles operating at levels below DASA.

Hope this helps.

Dasas

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Kyle here...

Thanks TC, I'm sort of at a loss to explain the dasa system through what I know of western astrology. The most popular version of the dasa system used in the west is the Vimsotari, however, there's a lesser known system called Chara dasa. Essentially, the houses hold indicators, the planets, and based on their longitude in their house, they become indicators. Much like the first seven houses of the horoscope. Hindu astrology uses the seven 'inner' planets, and the nodes, Rahu and Ketu, that i referred to in an earlier post. The houses then 'aspect' eachother in a fixed way. There is a primary dasa house and a sub house in the dasa. The primary house lasts for a set number of years, or months even, and the sub-houses cycle through the zodiac.

In MJ's case, he was in Leo-Virgo dasa period (starting 08/08), and each sub-period for 12 months: a sub period a year for the next twelve years.

the indicators/karakas in his (21.53) chart are:

Mars, Atma(soul)
Saturn, Amatya(wealth, etc...2nd house areas)
Venus, Bhratri(3rd house affairs)
Moon, Matri (4th)
Sun, Putra(5th)
JUPITER, Gnati(SIXTH)
Mercury, Dara(7th)

The Gnati Karaka is the hardship indicator. The planets in this system lose almost all of their basic indicators, i.e. Saturn is no longer operating as Saturn, he's a karaka for, in MJ's case, 2nd house matters. That is then blended together with other aspects and the houses themselves, and the system starts to jump from the page. I highlighted Jupiter because it is not a good planet or indicator for MJ. In the natal chart Jupiter rules the 8th and 11th houses. Jupiter also becomes the Gnati karaka in the chara dasa system. Like western astrology, in the Hindu system you take these criteria and formulate an approach to the chart. The Hindu system is very Lunar in nature. Textures and hues are very fuzzy and blended: you're taught to trust intuition rather than hard corroborating data.

If you're wondering if this chara dasa period for MJ portends hardship and even death, you're absolutely right. Leo, which holds Sun and Mercury, is aspected by Libra, which holds the dreaded gnati karaka, Jupiter. (as well as Mars, the atma karaka, in Aries). Also, the Virgo sub-period he was in. The Rahu/Ketu (nodal) axis are the only planets active in Virgo aspected houses. The eighth house in MJ's natal chart is also involved in the Virgo aspected houses.

It's easy in the eastern system to see what you want to. That's why a person should never rectify a birthtime with the dasa system. However, when all these parts start to tell a similar story, as if they agree with eachother, the evidence can be extremely persuasive. I said in an earlier post that the 21.53 time 'spoke' to me, this is how I meant that.

I also would bet my income for the next ten years that MJ knew his birthtime and had even had several readings. Maybe even an astrologer in his camp. He was an intelligent person: a savvy innovative businessman even. As much as he so seemingly tried to find something that was lost, some kind of OTHERness, no doubt he turned to alternative or even occultist avenues.

He knew his chart. I just don't think he wanted anyone else to.

thanks, i hope this helps some.

Kyle