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Dear All, desperately need your wisdom on this...
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3507
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Taurus,

Glorious, glorious weather yesterday. It was one of the 10 best of the year to be sure. Sadly all that ended today, but I’m learning to appreciate what I have rather than lament what I don’t.

Yes, there is a traditional method for determining whether or not a person will marry, if he or she will marry late, and perhaps if he or she will marry more than once. I say perhaps because divorce was not mentioned too often in the older texts. More than likely, a second marriage would indicate death of the partner. So check the chart of the person you want to marry, too. If he or she has a chart that shows early death of a spouse, keep on looking. Wink

Look at the sign on the 7th cusp, always keeping in mind that no single testimony stands alone as absolute. Cardinal sign indicates an early marriage, and/or perhaps a hasty one, fixed a long-term marriage and probably only one, and a mutable sign is an indication of more than one marriage. The ruler must be considered, too.

Look for connections between the ASC ruler and the DSC and/or it’s ruler. Connections can be by aspect or better, mutual reception. I’ll use my own chart since the topic is sort of personal and I don’t want to be dragging out someone else’s chart, and I don’t feel like looking for a celebrity’s chart to make the point. Aquarius, a fixed air sign is on my 7th cusp, ruled by Saturn in Leo in 12. All that fixity should indicate a stable long-term marriage, but not really. Saturn destroys, does he not? And this Saturn is disposited by the Sun that rules my ASC, and my Sun is in the 7th in mutable Pisces. Note how I leave out the fact that Saturn is posited in the house of self undoing.

Aspects play a role as well. Mercury, the bicorporal planet, is conjunct my 7th cusp. Mars in Leo Rx opposes my 7th cusp and Mercury, but Jupiter, in mutable Sagittarius, sextiles it. Lots of mixed testimonies here, but a little common sense is in order. If there are testimonies that contradict the fixity or long-term single spouse indications then a single marriage is less likely.

Also the Arabic parts are important. My part of marriage is at 17 Cancer, a fruitful sign, in the 11th house, a good house. My part of divorce is in a partile conjunction to my Sun, the ASC ruler, in the 7th. So when we look at all these testimonies we see marriage is a strong likelihood, and so is divorce.

The triplicity rulers show married life. The triplicity rulers for air signs in a day chart are Saturn, Mercury, and Jupiter. Each rules one-third of the married life. Now they all don’t play out this way, but my first wife, was a Saturn ruled Aquarius, my second a Mercury ruled Virgo. I have no anticipation of a third wife, but since my natal Jupiter is in Sagittarius in 5, I’m looking forward to a peaceful, and perhaps prosperous final third of married life.

Other things to look for, if the native is a man, look at the Moon and Venus (mine are square). If the native is a woman, look at Mars and the Sun. These will tell us about the women and men in our lives respectively.

Can all of this be timed? Probably, but that seems to be a tad fatalistic. Using directions or progressions one can probably come up with likely times of happiness, trouble and stress. I wouldn’t ever tell a client, “Yes, you will be married for 8 and one-half years, and re-married five years later only to die as a ward of the state.” That’s a bit over the top.

Notice anything missing? Yes, the outer planets. I don’t know what they might add since with all these tools the astrologer is easily overwhelmed with information as it is. But, if you insist: Uranus is associated with divorce. It is about the only outer planet transit I’ve ever experienced that coincided with anything important. I’d look at Neptune as it is considered to be associated with illusion (looking at love/marriage through rose colored glasses) and dissolution. But again, be careful. Having Neptune or Uranus on the ASC or DSC is not a guaranteed trip to divorce court. We raised the flags here last week at the arrival of a new edition of The Astrologer’s Apprentice. In that issue John points out that nothing stands alone in any chart. Aspects, configurations even house positions are the same in millions and millions of charts. Everyone with Uranus on the 7th doesn’t get divorced. We need to look at all the testimonies before we make a judgment, and as Lana will find out some day, as she chases toddlers around her house, sometimes astrologers are wrong.

Tom
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4132
Location: England

Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If he or she has a chart that shows early death of a spouse, keep on looking.


Especially if their chart shows murderous tendencies Laughing

Great post Tom, thanks.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 599

Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Glorious, glorious weather yesterday. It was one of the 10 best of the year to be sure.

Glorious - yes. Just yesterday I said exactly the same thing to my husband - "Today has to be one of the 10 best days of the year for sure"!!

Quote:
Sadly all that ended today,

I know, today is so miserable, and it seems even more so because of the stark contrast to the last 2 days...

Quote:
but I’m learning to appreciate what I have rather than lament what I don’t.

Me too - God only knows - me too!!! Wink

Thank you for highly informative post. This is such great education. Can't wait to see how it applies to my chart.
Very Happy
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3507
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Taurus,

You might wish to invest in James Holden’s translation of The Judgment of Nativities by Abu ‘Ali Al-Khayyat (who if nothing else has a way cool name), which is available from The American Federation of Astrologers http://www.astrologers.com/ for $18.00. He offers pearls of wisdom such as:


Quote:
“When Venus is in a domicile of Mars and Mars in a domicile of Venus it signifies an abundance of wives.”


Now keep in mind he thinks this is a good thing.

Christian Astrology Book III on nativities is invaluable as well, but harder to find in a retyped edition. I’ll partly work through an example of Abu ‘Ali’s techique.


Quote:
“Make your judgment of matters relating to matrimony and marriage from the 7th sign and its lord and from the planet that you find in the 7th domicile of heaven, also from Venus and the Moon, and from the Part of Marriage and its lord. If all these significations or those of them that are the most powerful, have dignities in the angles or in the succedents, free from any combustion, and applying to the lord of the ASC it signifies that the native will have a good and suitable marriage.”


Step one: Look at the sign on the cusp of the 7th, and although he doesn’t mention aspects to the cusp specifically, trust me on it, aspects to the cusp, the ruler of the cusp and any planet or planets in the 7th and the Moon and Venus. Note the relative strengths of each.

OK lets back up a bit and determine how he does that. Is the 7th cusp bombarded with hard aspects particularly from the malefics? Does it receive harmonious aspects from the benefics? What about the ruler of the 7th? Is he in dignity or debility and how is he aspected? Do the same for the Moon and Venus.


Using my chart again since we started that way and it has lots of stuff going on we see Mercury conjuncts and Mars opposes the 7th, both are retrograde, but Jupiter sextiles the 7th and Mercury and trines Mars. So Jupiter mitigates some of the “evil” associated with the Mars opposition. Jupiter is in Sagittarius also disposits the Sun, ruler of the ASC so, things could be better; things could be worse. The Mercury – Mars opposition played out in the marriage.

The 7th ruler is Saturn in Leo Rx in 12. Boy is this promising or what? Actually Saturn is in hayz (diurnal planet, diurnal sign above the horizon in a diurnal chart), a strength. Saturn also joys in the 12th. But it is still a retrograde Saturn in detriment. Things aren’t looking real good for marriage at this point. All we’ve missed with Saturn is combustion.

Venus is in Aries in 8. Oh boy more detriment. But Venus isn’t aspected by a malefic. Abu ‘Ali might have accepted a trine by sign from Jupiter in Sagittarius. Venus is in a succedent house, but not the best one. However, of some help is the fact that Venus is in mutual reception by exaltation with the Pisces Sun ruler of the ASC. So in detriment, yes but there is hope.

The Moon is in Cancer, very strong, in the 11th, the best of succedent houses. The Moon is square Venus, but the square is indicative, perhaps of delay. For the record I married for the first time at 26. The Moon is intercepted using Placidus cusps. The Moon is also in a wide trine to the Sun.

So far, we’ve met the criteria for a marriage, to a point. “Good and suitable” are another matter. Saturn, lord 7 is in a cadent house and in detriment, but he makes no difficult aspect to anything under consideration. Venus is in detriment, but not cadent and there are no difficult aspects from a malefic, and she is in mutual reception with the ASC ruler. The Moon is strong in rulership and well placed. So marriage is indicated but perhaps not “good and suitable.”

He also says to look to the Lords of the triplicities of Venus. OK mine is a day chart, so Sun, Jupiter, and Saturn. Sun is angular but peregrine (Since the Sun only rules one sign and has no dignity by term, he is peregrine a lot), Jupiter is in a good house and in rulership, but Saturn is weak and troublesome. Still two out of three isn’t bad. Listen to Abu ‘Ali:


Quote:
“And if Venus is impedited or cadent and the lords of its triplicities are in favorable houses, the place of Venus signifies something malignant in the marriage, but the lords of the triplicities signify joy and advantage arising from his wives (in some manner).”


Let’s just say he nailed it, and leave it at that.

The reason I’m putting so much time into this one topic is to try to demonstrate the depth one can achieve using the traditional method. There is a lot in the above that explains things about my first marriage that I won't go into, and there is a lot more to be learned using his methods. We haven’t touched the part of marriage, yet. The problem I encounter using traditional natal techniques without the outer planets is not lack of information, but too much of it. I think with a willing and open client one could easily spend an entire reading or two on a single house digging ever deeper without using an outer planet much less an asteroid, Chiron, or a hypothetical. Keep in mind there are 11 other houses and we can go into as much depth as we want to with each one of them. Enjoy.

Tom
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 599

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
“When Venus is in a domicile of Mars and Mars in a domicile of Venus it signifies an abundance of wives.”


Now keep in mind he thinks this is a good thing.


Tom,
Before I go further into your post, I just wanted to mention something regarding your quote above. Abu ‘Ali Al-Khayyat is clearly a muslim (P.S> So am I) and as you may be aware, muslim men are allowed up to 4 wives. Although in modern day muslim countries (or at-least modern day muslims), women (such as myself) do not tolerate their husbands having up to 4 wives. (Duh!!!! Rolling Eyes ). But I thought you may be curious as to why Islam allows this. In the old days, to the best of my knowledge, the men used to go to war and the women used to stay at home. There was a lot of fighting in the name of Islam. If the men got killed (higly probability), the woman was left alone with noone to support her. Islam forbids adultery where there is no committment; at the same time, it allows a man to have up to 4 wives, in which case they are committed to support them emotionally and financially. There was a greater percentage of women compared to men, and a woman alone in those days was incapable of supporting herself. Hence, the man was allowed to have "sex" with up to 4 women, but only if he agreed to support them as a wife, financially and in every aspect as a husband is required to do. Islam is actually very strict in terms of the rights of a woman, especially if she is a Mother and a Wife.
At the same time, since Islam does not allow adultery, Islam seems to take into account the natural desires of a man (i.e. variety). So while adultery is the "easy" way out, if you're a muslim, and you really want some variety after you're married, you're going to have to marry the woman and support her financially and that's the way it goes!!! My american Christian husband thinks it's a great idea!! Very Happy (Just kidding!!!)

I am certainly not going to debate whether this is right or wrong - that could lead to major controversy and heated debates and noone really wins - I just want you to know that as I know it, I believe this is where this comes from. And this is why our good friend Abu ‘Ali Al-Khayyat thinks this is a good thing. And when he says "abundance of wives", I'm pretty sure he means at the same time, and not in succession....

Lana,
Your posts regarding gender of your children made me wonder if you also are a muslim? I only bring this up because I know that in the Muslim world, the need for a male offspring is paramount.

Tom,
OK, back to your post... Very Happy
And yes, I think it would be a good idea to invest in the book you mentioned plus more. The 2 John Frawley books (Real Astrology and the Real Astrology applied), would you recommend both or just one?

Thanks,
Taurus7
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3507
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Abu ‘Ali Al-Khayyat is clearly a muslim (P.S> So am I) and as you may be aware, muslim men are allowed up to 4 wives. <snip>


Good Morning Taurus,

I'm aware of Abu 'Ali's intent and of the traditional Muslim practice of polygamy. I find the idea of living as husband and wife with several women fascinating, but not so fascinating as I would wish to try it. I spend part of my holiday weekend painting the porch with my Virgo wife and after a couple of days having my erorrs pointed out by one woman, I'm not so sure having three more standing over me would have improved my mood. In an effort to achieve oneness with the universe I asked her, "Honey, which part of this would you like to do today?" figuring I would do something else away from the critiques. She respnded, "I would like to watch you and point out the things you miss." Well I asked, didn't I?

I recommend both of John's books. The Real Astrology is both a sometimes harsh critique of modern astrology as well as an explanation of the traditional method. More importantly, the book points out the loss of spirituality that, in John's view, was once part and parcel of astrological practice, and no longer is despite claims made to the contrary by modern practioners. John is a man of strong opinions, so don't expect anything wishy-washy in this book.

The Real Astrology Applied is a collection of John's writings on various topics that illuminate the ideas presented in The Real Astrology. Most of the articles are from his magazine, "The Astrologer's Aprentice," but some are from other journals such as the journal of the British Astrological Association. Roughly the last third of the book is devoted to an in-depth discussion of the houses and, in my opinion this is the best section of the book. Read this and Deb's book Temples of the Sky and you'll have everything you need to know about the astrological houses.

Tom
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Lana8



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 7

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Taurus7,
just connected from my work and saw the part of your message addressed to me. No, I am not a muslim, I am ortodox by tradition.
I say by tradition, because I still don't have an answer to the question whether I believe in God and according to that, whether I am really ortodox in my heart. Maybe it is partly because of my profession (history of religions, with accent on religions and mythology of Old World), or because of my constant need to have facts and arguments for everything that is happening around me. But, it is not my intention to elaborate on this - I just wanted to say to you that my curiousity in potentional astrological explanations about predicting child's gender in natal chart, comes from my need to know astrological arguments for telling to someone whether he or she will have a boy or a girl. Since the astrologer I went to didn't give me any argument for his statement that I will probably have a boy, naturally I was very curious to know whether he based that statement on a fact or not. Since I don't know what astrological facts indicate baby boy or girl in woman's natal chart, I put the question to you all, who have more knowledge and experience in astrology than myself. That was the only reason for mentioning potentional gender of a child in natal chart.
Also, I reffered to a girlfriend of mine who has 5 daughters, because I was hoping that someone of you would be benevolent enough to just in brief, tell me are there any astrological indications in her chart for having only girls or not. She, however (also ortodox by religion) would like to have a boy, since her husband is the only son in the family, so she has to put up a lot of pressure from his parents who would very much like to have a grandson after five grandaughters. Although it is not kind of thinking logic or even understandable for me (I can't even begin or want to begin to understand them as grandparents who are willing to prefer one gender to another), I have simpathy for her who is pressured (in a nonverbal, subtle, yet still present way). So, if you or Tom or any other member of this forum has some additions about views on predicting gender of a child in woman's natal chart, I would be most grateful for it, as would I am sure, my friend.
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