Puzzled - Perfection or not? Question about Marriage

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"Will I marry Person 'B' and will I be happy?"
A good friend of mine asked me this question, I received it yesterday. She is in an unhappy long-term live-in situation with one man (Say person "A"), but having a relationship with another (person "B"). She has the opportunity to make a life with person "B", but is having trouble making a move due to her circumstances; sharing house with person 'A', long-term relationship, difficult to break the bonds, etc.

Question asked Dec 10, 2004; 3:20 PM, 40N53; 73W58; EST +5:00

I am timing the question for the time that she asked me.

It's an early ascendant, which perhaps reflects the fact that she is still in i live-in situation with person 'A', so it may be too early to ask if she can marry person 'B'. But there is planetary hour correspondence I think, and the main rulers match the descriptions of the querent and person 'B', and the location and condition of the planets also fit in with the situation, so I believe this chart is radical.

She is Mercury, 'B' is Jupiter. The Sun, I think, could represent person 'A'.

While Merc is coming to a sextile with Jup in 3 degrees, and the Moon is also coming to a sextile with Jup in 12 degrees, and both the Moon and Merc are in the 7th; but Merc is combust the sun and in detriment; albeit moving away from it. So it seems to me that they have the opportunity and the inclination, but is Merc strong enough to make it happen?

Also, Mercury is translating from the Sun to Jup; separating from conjunction with the sun and coming to a sextile with Jupiter. Sun is ruler of the 4rth, and I think this is also significant, but I can't figure it out. And Merc is in the dignities of both the Sun and Jup (triplicity and jup), so I think it satisfies the traditional requirements for translation. But what does this translation mean?

So I'm confused - is this perfection or not?
Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.

Re: Puzzled - Perfection or not? Question about Marriage

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Hi T,
While Merc is coming to a sextile with Jup in 3 degrees, and the Moon is also coming to a sextile with Jup in 12 degrees, and both the Moon and Merc are in the 7th; but Merc is combust the sun and in detriment; albeit moving away from it. So it seems to me that they have the opportunity and the inclination, but is Merc strong enough to make it happen?
This is a good point, because as you say - Mercury is in detriment, which on the surface indicates a lack of vigour and strength to act. This could be for several reasons and I believe each chart with a detrimented significator will have embedded within it the reasons why the significator is weak. One chart might indicate that the weakness is due to a fundamental flaw in the character, while another might show an inability to act due to circumstances. To me, this querent lacks strength because she is in a situation that currently affords her no freedom to do what she wants to do: in other words, she cannot act because she feels powerless to do so. A planet in detriment is like someone who feels totally out of their natural "environment", and this appears to be so in this case.
However unlike a significator in fall, where the person is weak perhaps because of no fault of their own, when in detriment, a sig' is weak due to circumstances of their own making. This might be seen to be due to a weakness in the character, rather than an accident of circumstances.
This would seem to be the case here; her sig is in detriment, but not only that, she is also combust, indicating that she feels powerless because of her close proximity to either another person or a situation.
In this latter situation though she is at least trying to free herself, as seen by Mercury pulling away from the Sun by its retrograde motion. Actually, the Sun is moving faster, so we could say that the Sun is leaving Mercury behind, but Mercury doesn't seem to care as it is also moving away and slowly approaching Jupiter, whom it dignifies.

Another point I'd like to raise about the dignity, or lack of it, of Mercury. While we can easily see that Mercury lacks essential dignity because of its detriment, it must also be noted that it is also perfectly in sect, or "hayz", by virtue of it being oriental of the Sun, in the same hemisphere and in a diurnal sign. This, to me, mitigates some of the afflictions that Mercury is facing and gives it some power to act on its own behalf to extricate itself.
But what does this translation mean?
Ah, well now - that is a very good question. As you say, the perfection shown by Mercury's application to Jupiter is actually delivered via translation of light. (Actually, this is a mutual application, since Mercury and Jupiter are moving towards each other) Traditionally, perfection via translation indicates that that a third party will bring about the desired result, yet here Mercury clearly represents the querent,as it rules the ascendant. However Mercury also rules the 5th house, the house of children and also ambassadours. I have no idea how either of these might fit into the picture, so maybe someone else could jump in with their ideas on this one?
I think a lot hinges on determining here the identity of the Sun. Does it represent the person that the querent is currently living with, or perhaps her domestic situation as a whole (ruling 4th)? If so, in what manner could Mercury "re-invest" via translation, the previous sextile of the Sun to Jupiter, and thereby bring perfection in this question?
There are a lot of varying points of analysis and interpretation here that are co-mingling and some seem to contadict each other, and I think it's worth noting the early degree rising, which indicates that the question is premature and it is quite simply too early to give a definitive yes or no.

A couple of final points that struck me: First, Mercury actually sextiles Jupiter twice. The initial contact occurs when they are at 14 Sag/Libra with Mercury still retro'. The second contact is after Mercury turns direct and occurs at 17 Libra/ Sag and the Sun is at 9 Capricorn. This of course is in real time and not symbolic. It occurs on Dec 30th, which is 20 days after the question was posed, and indicates a period of either 20 weeks or months.
Finally let's not forget the Moon, sitting there on the 7th cusp in Jupiter's dignity. The Moon will also sextile Jupiter - in 12 degrees, but first it must square Uranus on the cusp of the 11th, and this shows that there must be a break, split or separation of some kind before the querent can come together with the object of her wishes (Jupiter ruling 11th)

Phew! Now I'm exhausted! :) I need to go and lie down while someone feeds me grapes and fans me with a copy of "Christian Astrology" or something :lol:
==
Pete

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and I think it's worth noting the early degree rising, which indicates that the question is premature and it is quite simply too early to give a definitive yes or no.


I agree with Pete. I got 1 degree ascendent. Too early to ask. I would ask at a later time. Looks a little complicated and your friend seems to have alot to think about and do. I wish her the best of luck!

Re: Puzzled - Perfection or not? Question about Marriage

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Pete,
Nice judgement!! Very thorough...thanks for taking the time to respond. A few more questions, if I may?.....

To me, this querent lacks strength because she is in a situation that currently affords her no freedom to do what she wants to do:
....but not only that, she is also combust, indicating that she feels powerless because of her close proximity to either another person or a situation.
Based on the reality of the situation as I know it, what you are saying is totally accurate. I think it's her close proximity to her live-in boyfriend.

But what does this translation mean?
Ah, well now - that is a very good question. As you say, the perfection shown by Mercury's application to Jupiter is actually delivered via translation of light. (Actually, this is a mutual application, since Mercury and Jupiter are moving towards each other)
I think Mercury is perfecting something between the Sun and Jupiter, it is bringing the Sun together with Jupiter, while at the same time perfecting its sextile with Jupiter. But Mercury is the querent, so it couldn't be a third party, yet this is translation. So what is it?
Traditionally, perfection via translation indicates that that a third party will bring about the desired result, yet here Mercury clearly represents the querent,as it rules the ascendant. However Mercury also rules the 5th house, the house of children and also ambassadours. I have no idea how either of these might fit into the picture, so maybe someone else could jump in with their ideas on this one?
Deb or someone else, maybe someone can help out a bit here? :D
I think a lot hinges on determining here the identity of the Sun. Does it represent the person that the querent is currently living with, or perhaps her domestic situation as a whole (ruling 4th)? If so, in what manner could Mercury "re-invest" via translation, the previous sextile of the Sun to Jupiter, and thereby bring perfection in this question?
Finally let's not forget the Moon, sitting there on the 7th cusp in Jupiter's dignity. The Moon will also sextile Jupiter - in 12 degrees, but first it must square Uranus on the cusp of the 11th, and this shows that there must be a break, split or separation of some kind before the querent can come together with the object of her wishes (Jupiter ruling 11th)
Well, to me it would seem that this would be a split from Person A.
Phew! Now I'm exhausted! :) I need to go and lie down while someone feeds me grapes and fans me with a copy of "Christian Astrology" or something :lol:
I'm sure the lovely Ms. Sabena would be very happy to oblige... :wink:

T7

Re: Puzzled - Perfection or not? Question about Marriage

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A few more questions, if I may?.....
Fire away :)
Based on the reality of the situation as I know it, what you are saying is totally accurate. I think it's her close proximity to her live-in boyfriend.
That would seem the most likely scenario. At the moment she feels trapped and unable to act, but her sig is retrograde and it and the Sun are moving away from each other, so it looks like she'll be free of that situation soon.
I think Mercury is perfecting something between the Sun and Jupiter, it is bringing the Sun together with Jupiter, while at the same time perfecting its sextile with Jupiter. But Mercury is the querent, so it couldn't be a third party, yet this is translation. So what is it?
It has been pointed out to me recently that while it's true that Mercury is translating the light from the Sun to Jupiter, it isn't that that brings perfection to the question, as the Sun isn't one of the significators.
The perfection comes from Mercury's mutual application to Jupiter, and that's it.
The fact that Mercury has previously been conjunct the Sun would now suggest that before the querent can come together with the quesited, she has to leave the Sun behind and emerge from combustion. The perfection isn't reliant upon translation, just upon the querent gaining her freedom to act. This seems to make more sense to me.
Deb or someone else, maybe someone can help out a bit here? :D
The Moon will also sextile Jupiter - in 12 degrees, but first it must square Uranus on the cusp of the 11th, and this shows that there must be a break, split or separation of some kind before the querent can come together with the object of her wishes (Jupiter ruling 11th)
Well, to me it would seem that this would be a split from Person A.
Well yes, some kind of upset or severing is always implied when Uranus is around, and often this takes place quite suddenly.
Phew! Now I'm exhausted! :) I need to go and lie down while someone feeds me grapes and fans me with a copy of "Christian Astrology" or something :lol:
I'm sure the lovely Ms. Sabena would be very happy to oblige... :wink
Oh I'm sure she would have been, but unfortunately she was out at her keep-fit class so I had to peel my own grapes, as usual ;)
--
Pete

Re: Puzzled - Perfection or not? Question about Marriage

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Sir Peter,
Thank you so much for answering my questions...you are *good* - so precise, so knowledgeable, so thorough, so Lilly-like, etc., etc.....(another 5 minutes of assorted non-stop praise......)

So anyway, how about that nice free consultation i've been trying to get out of you for at least 6 months now....and of course I mean every single word I say.... :D
I'm sure the lovely Ms. Sabena would be very happy to oblige...
Oh I'm sure she would have been, but unfortunately she was out at her keep-fit class so I had to peel my own grapes, as usual ;)
Maybe you should join her in her fitness regimen....I'm sure you could use it....

............. Juuuuuust kidding...... :wink:

(So much for hopes for a free consultation.... :lol: )

Best regards and Merry Christmas to you (and your lovely fit and trim Swedish significant other) if we don't touch base again before then...

Taurus7

Re: Puzzled - Perfection or not? Question about Marriage

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Thank you so much for answering my questions...you are *good* - so precise, so knowledgeable, so thorough, so Lilly-like, etc., etc.....(another 5 minutes of assorted non-stop praise......)
Well thank you so much for the fullsome praise. Perhaps after I shuffle off this mortal coil you could have a blue plaque erected on the wall of my flat, bearing the legend: "Sir Peter lived here. He was heartless in his judgements, but he knew perfection when he saw it" 8) :)
So anyway, how about that nice free consultation i've been trying to get out of you for at least 6 months now....and of course I mean every single word I say.... :D
How about all those free horary judgements you've had out of me in the past few months, in which I meant every word I said? :P
Maybe you should join her in her fitness regimen....I'm sure you could use it....

............. Juuuuuust kidding...... :wink:

(So much for hopes for a free consultation.... :lol: )
Yep, and you were soooo close, too! ;)
Best regards and Merry Christmas to you (and your lovely fit and trim Swedish significant other) if we don't touch base again before then...
Ah, thank you T, and happy holidays to you too. I'll pass your warm regards on to Sabena when she comes home.

I hope that 2005 brings you at least one horary where the answer is an unqualified "yes". :D
--

"Sir" Peter ;)

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Well,

i know i am a bit late with my two cents ... but just thought that this could be something interesting to mention, concerning the marriage question asked.

I could not agree more with all the things above said, but i visited a horary lecture last Friday and something unusual that was presented to us caught my attention: when asking about marriage horary charts we should take a close look at the Mc and it's ruler, because it, apparently, represents the change of status of the querent. When a person is about to get divorced, married or even engaged, then the ruler of the rising sign has either an aspect, or a strong reception with the ruler of the Mc. It was also mentioned that the Arabian Part of marriage has a vital role to play when judging this sort of charts. We only had the chance to discuss a few 'love' horary charts and i have noticed that the above mentioned Arabian Part always played a vital role when giving an accurate judgment.

Furthermore, i was told that when judging a 'love' horary the essential dignity of the planets had less impact on the judgment than when judging another type of horary, as love was supposed to "make us weak". I think that the final outcome will be shown whith the receptions the significators make. Oh yes! We had an example where the Asc ruler was combusted and our teacher had only one comment: that no matter what you tell the client, he or she will do whatever he or she wants. There is little chance that they will pay much attention to your advice. A combust planet is the worse thing that can happen in a horary chart and indicates an outcome that will not please the client.

I know that this is a little bit out of the blue, but thought it could be of some help ... and if nothing more - thinking/discussion material!

Zorana

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Zorana,

I really have to disagree with some of what you said. I might agree that the midheaven may come into play even though I have never heard of that technique before. But I wouldn?t use it in this case because there is no marriage on the horizon yet. This person is still living with someone else and isn?t really involved with this other person yet. I am not so sure I?d look to the midheaven for indicators of how successful a marriage might be, but even if I did, I think that would only make sense if a marriage were imminent.

And I cannot say how strongly I disagree with the point that ?love makes us weak? so we should downplay the dignities of the planets. Lily constantly makes uses of the dignities and debilities in his relationship charts, and even more to the point, I don?t think that love makes us weak. In an unrequited affair we are weak, and perhaps and only perhaps we feel weak in the beginning, but love is something that makes us stronger and no one will ever convince me otherwise.

A smaller point is that a combust planet does not necessarily mean that a person will ignore the chart. They may ignore it but only because a combust significator implies they don?t get what they want. But on the other hand they may take the chart is a warning and change their course of action. But by its nature a combust planet does not mean that someone will ignore the chart?s advice. A combust planet shows someone who is so weak as to have no power in the matter at hand. Its symbolism is that just like you can?t see a planet that is so close to the Sun, the person signified by it is overwhelmed and powerless. And Lily said that the w
Mark F

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Your post appears to have ended mid-sentence Mark, I?m not sure why.

I think there?s some interesting points in your post Zorana. But I am perplexed about the suggestion that the dignities are less valid in matters pertaining to love: since love can "make us weak". I don?t doubt that it can - I?m sure we use the phrase ?falling in love? for good reason. But this is why I think the dignities are, if anything, more important in relationship charts, because they indicate whether the relationship operates on an equal footing concerning commitment, status and emotional dependency. Through the dignities we can see who is in control or what can be gained through the interchange. This doesn?t just apply to love matters, but any relationship whether it?s pleasant or hostile. I?d be interested to know if there was any other reason given for placing less emphasis upon the dignities in these types of charts, other than that already given.

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Valid points!

The thing about the Mc - although i did not calculate the horary chart itself i think that the teacher meant that if the ruler of the Mc is about to change signs, then there could be a change of marital status. Hm ... well said, Mark. I obviously overlooked the fact that she is not married, but living with one person and asking the question about another. We had one example where the Asc ruler (the querent was a women) was in the same sign as the Arabian Part of Marriage, but had no overwhelming receptions between the significator of the VIIth. She was keen to get married.

About the dignities: if i understood this correctly, the ruler of the Asc in the domicile of the person the querent asked about should be a sign of true love. So ... to be in the domicile of the VIIth house, the Asc ruler would always have to be in it's exile, right?
To be honest, this was one of the things that confused me the most. I know that when looking at a horary chart the essential dignity will tell us whether a planet has the strength to act or not. Why this was mentioned is beyond me, but during the entire class only the reception between the significators were mentioned ... any ideas? The examples were something like: "her Asc ruler is in the triplicity of his ruler, therefor she has friendly feelings for him, but his ruler is exalting her planet, therefor he likes her a lot - looking through pink glasses etc." Does this make any sense?

Mark and Deb, thank you both for your input. Yes, those were the things that confused me as well. Oh yes! Thank you Mark for the clarification how a combusted planet acts. During the lecture only my version was given, but i must admit that i like your explanation better.

Zorana

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zorana wrote:Well,
when asking about marriage horary charts we should take a close look at the Mc and it's ruler, because it, apparently, represents the change of status of the querent. When a person is about to get divorced, married or even engaged, then the ruler of the rising sign has either an aspect, or a strong reception with the ruler of the Mc.

Zorona,
Thanks for your post.
In the light of the existing chart, Neptune on the MC indicates to me that her current live-in situation may be dissolving, and her ruler MERC is also coming to a sextile with Neptune.
Meanwhile, Venus, which I understand also represents the female in love charts, is coming to a trine with the ruler of the 10th, Saturn, albeit both are in detriment. Seems like the change of status may not be so great....
It was also mentioned that the Arabian Part of marriage has a vital role to play when judging this sort of charts. We only had the chance to discuss a few 'love' horary charts and i have noticed that the above mentioned Arabian Part always played a vital role when giving an accurate judgment.
I wish I knew where it was, I'll have to take another look.
There is little chance that they will pay much attention to your advice. A combust planet is the worse thing that can happen in a horary chart and indicates an outcome that will not please the client.
Well, Merc is definitely combust, and yet it's moving away and coming to a sextile with ruler of the 7th, the quesited. Seems to me that the elements for perfection/against perfection are somewhat balanced and the best conclusion that can be drawn is to reserve judgement???