46
Paul wrote:
Therese wrote:
This is an important distinction because it solves the apparent tropical-sidereal contradiction of signs which tend either to extroversion or introversion. For example a sign with a primary inward focus is called Active in Aristotle?s philosophy (the mainframe), but passive (feminine) in the western astrological system.

Paul replied:
I think there is actually an underlying assumption/problem implicit or at the foundation of this whole idea, which is mentioned earlier in your article.

Quoting from your article:
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/aatriplicities2013.htm

There also seems to be a general belief among astrologers that whatever traits signs of the zodiac might have are similar in the tropical and sidereal zodiac. Thus, if tropical Aries is forthright, impatient and aggressive, then sidereal Aries must manifest the same traits. I must agree with Mr. Spock in this one: ?Captain, that is not logical.? If this were true, it seems we?d have to shift the physical nature of the sky depending on which astrologer (tropical or sidereal) happened to be reading our astrological chart.

Paul wrote:
But actually the argument is totally logical, what is not (necessarily) logical is the conclusion you make.

Let's take the argument again, both the sidereal and tropical astrologers say the same things about the same sign, but you believe that this can't be true unless we shift the entire nature of the sky depending on who is observing it. But actually there is a fundamentally easier conclusion - one of them is wrong.
If we?re talking about the nature of a sidereal and tropical sign of the same name, yes, that is the logical conclusion. The nature of the sign must be changed in one zodiac or the other. (Of course I?d agree that tropical observations as observations are generally correct whereas there have really been no similar observations in the sidereal zodiac.) But my theme song (very repetitious by now) is that these observed characteristics are really sidereal. As I've said often before, this understanding is credited initially to Cyril Fagan.
You say that both tropical and sidereal are correct, more or less, and this is because actually tropical astrologers don't understand what masculine/feminine mean in relation to active/passive signs, and, as a result, reverse what each means, which, as it happens, would mean that the tropical understanding of active correlates to the sidereal understanding of passive.

But this is not true, as I hope I demonstrated in the previous post.
(Rueful smile) I?m sorry, but due to the different emphasis we placed on terms, I don't think this was sufficiently demonstrated. Setting Aristotle aside, I tend to see that tropical astrologers simply have a different definition of active/passive than was understood in ancient times.
Therefore the other really simple logical conclusion is that one of them is simply wrong. We may not like that conclusion but it is a logical conclusion that we could, if we chose, form from the argument.
Doesn?t this suggest that the wrong signs must then be re-defined?
The other conclusion, notably not even considered here, is that rather than tropical astrologers getting it wrong, it's entirely possible that sidereal astrologers have it mixed up and are altering the sign meanings.
Sidereal astrologers do need to alter sign meanings if they are calling the signs by the same names as tropical astrologers and giving them the same traits. (Aries vs. Aries for example) If those who use the sidereal zodiac are copying tropical characteristics, then they are just plain wrong!
So, back to Spock, he's more likely to say "that is one alternative, the other is that one of the two parties is simply incorrect."

Going back then to the entire argument. I have really never seen any reason to consider that tropical astrologers are casually, and constantly over time, altering the meaning of the signs so as to keep them in line with sidereal placements.
This would be a new topic for anyone who wishes to discuss it. However, we don?t really have much to go on for sign meanings from the past. Most of these sign characteristics were observed only going into the 20th century. So I would say sign traits weren?t altered so much as discovered. Then we?re back to the zodiac issue again.
If we wish to make this argument by way of examining what each means by masculine and feminine, then I do not think we can do so in terms of the evidence we have available, insofar as modern tropical (and indeed also sidereal) astrologers mean by active/feminine similar things to what we can assume Ptolemy meant by it if we derive it from Aristotelian concepts of Active/Passive Intellect such as you (probably rightly) assume in your article.

We need something else to make a compelling case. So far I have not read one - despite this being an actually quite common assertion made by sidereal astrologers.
As for the meaning of polarity, how about studying the lives of those with heavy emphasis in a particular zodiac sign? In my observation (sidereal) sign polarities really do relate to solar and lunar symbolism.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

47
Neptunehead wrote: Thanks for replying, Therese & Paul.

Ernst is a Jyotish astrologer but proves that the ancient Vedic techniques work best when keeping Rasis Tropical, but Nakshatras fixed to the Galactic centre . Listen to the MP3 link; it's all there.

Judging by the time stamp of both your reply's, neither bothered listening to the MP3 link beforehand.
Neptunehead

As I said in my reply, I am not interested in how the ayanamshas are calculated, or the other calculations relevant to jyotish astrologers.

I actually listened to about 20 minutes or more of the MP3 but it's 3 hours long. It wasn't obvious to me from the first 20 mins that the research was going to be presented to put this argument to bed. Perhaps it is. If so, is there a part in particular we could listen to. 3 hours is a very long time to listen speculatively to in case the argument is raised and put to bed.

The first 20 minutes was, basically, an exercise in demonstrating the inaccuracy of various astrologers, with the percentages given 60%, 40%, 30% etc. being, essentially, plucked out of thin air to convey a rough 'feel' that Ernst has about where these things stand. But the focus was on the history of the zodiac through jyotish texts and whether they were really calculating signs sidereally or tropically and focusing on the ayanamsha.

I then flicked through the MP3 and it seemed like he was demonstrating the various ayanamshas and whether they were accurately measured - which is essentially the same points he makes in the PDF I linked to. I am not sure if you read that PDF, but from skimming through the MP3 it seemed more focused on the traditional jyotish texts with the conclusion that one ought to use tropical signs and sidereal nakshatras. I have to say, that would be my own preference from my own understanding of these things too.

However, what is being discussed here is whether or not tropical signs reflect the underlying sidereal signs - in other words, tropical astrologers are secretly, without their realising, assigning traits to their signs that are based on the sidereal zodiac.

As it didn't seem like the issue we're actually discussing here was focused upon, I figured I would save myself 3 hours of listening, especially as the main points seemed to be made in the PDF I linked. If you haven't read it, I encourage you to read it and hopefully you will see the points more or less appear to overlap.
Therese Hamilton wrote:I would ask Martin (moderator) to intervene if there are any more posts here on the topic of Ernst Wilhelm and his work and opinions. As I said, that topic needs a separate thread. Neptunehead, you are welcome to copy your posts to a new thread if you want to discuss Ernst's work and videos.

I agree with Paul's final conclusion, but this thread isn't the place to further discuss Ernst Wilhelm. I would personally like to see all posts on this subject moved to their own thread.
Obviously Martin has the final say on this, but I would like to put my $0.02 in here. This discussion, as I understand it, is not on your research into this topic to the exlusion of everything else. I can imagine that if we had different threads all of which deal with the idea of tropical signs reflecting sidereal signs - one focusing on your research, one focusing on Ernst's research, maybe one on Cyril Fagan's etc etc that we'd have a situation that would leave me at least tearing my hair out.

Instead I see this thread as being about the principle broadly of discussing whether or not tropical signs reflect sidereal ones, with enough room within it to focus on whatever research or evidence is brought up to make that case. Right now we're focusing on your research, but if there is some other research which is central to the point, then I think we ought to include it here.

Obviously if Martin disagrees, he is free to create spin off threads, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that we do not have a sense of ownership when we create threads - it makes more sense to me to bring together any research or compelling evidence in regards tropical signs reflecting sidereal ones.

Now having said that, it doesn't appear to me that this is what Ernst Wilhelm's MP3 or website that Neptunehead has linked to is actually setting out to show that, and for that reason, may not be relevant in this thread.

Instead what Ernst seems to be arguing is that we ought to use a Tropical Zodiac and Sidereal Nakshatras, and whilst that idea is interesting, it really does not belong in a thread with this focus, but could make a fascinating thread on its own.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

48
Therese Hamilton wrote: Perhaps the problem is with the terms 'moves' and 'moved.' I don't think 'moved' is quite the same concept as being receptive and asking for input from others.
No me neither, but then asking for input from others is not the case I was making. That may be the conclusion you make from passive signs, at least it would appear to be, but it is not the conclusion I am making nor my focus.

The whole reason I deliberately went out to find a relevant text that pertains to the matter of active and passive intellect in so far as movement is mentioned is that this is exactly how (I understand) Tropical astrologers to understand the matter. It's not merely a focus on whether that locus is internal or external. There is a sense, otherwise lost, of applying to (masculine) and being applied to (feminine) - application in the non-astrolgoical aspect sense. Or, rather, moving (masculine) and receiving (feminine), or moving (masculine) and moved (feminine).

Now I should add that not only did I look at the article you posted, but I also looked at your article here:
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/amalefe2.htm

Some of these points you've repeated here anyway but in order to get more of a grasp of where you are coming from I read both of these articles before responding. Now I see that in your reply here you admit that your views have changed. Well that's okay, but one of the other reasons for my focus on movement was because in your article which I linked to here you do say two interesting things:
Masculine: "Static principle (centered in self)"
Feminine: "Dynamic principle (moves outward)

But my whole point for quoting and discussing the Aristotelian philosophy is to show that far from tropical astrologers getting this wrong, what appears to be incorrect is your own understanding of it.

Clearly, as we both admit, we are not experts on Aristotelian philosophy, however the author that I quoted was explicitly used because he clearly is someone more educated on the matter than either of us, he explicitly refers to active as moving and passive as moved. Whether or not you agree with that is, to be blunt, beside the point because, as we both admit, we are not the experts on this matter, so insofar as we both admit that, we ought to also admit that when our inexpert opinions clash with those who are more educated and studied on the matter than we know we are, the sensible move would be to admit that we may be ignorant on the matter and so at the very least listen carefully to the views of those educated on the subject.

Clearly your idea here of Masculine/Active as being static and Feminine/Passive as moving outward is not a reflection of Aristotelian philosophy.

The problem, as I would conclude it, is not that tropical astrologers are reversing the meaning, it's that, in effect, you are. Because it is Masculine which moves outward (don't take my word for it, but do listen to the source I quoted).
No, I think that 'motion' may not be the best way of understanding these terms. I think we both agree that Aristotle's 'active' generates its actions from within, but the idea of 'reception or being moved for the passive' is a bit confusing.
But the idea of generating and observing/receiving, or, moving and moved, is exactly how others who are better informed on the matter describe it.
Whether we find that confusing or not is another matter.

The point is that now I have demonstrated by using a source (and I could offer a couple more) that motion, or rather direction (say of force) is one way in which we can understand Aristotle's concepts of Active/Passive intelligence and it is a way that we can see quite well reflected in the understanding of masculine and feminine as tropical astrologers use it today.
No, I don?t see that movement or direction is the important part. What seems to be important is where the power focus is: within or outside oneself.
Do you mean I ought to mention tropical astrologers' sources which demonstrate the concept of masculine being dynamic and feminine as being passive, or masculine as dispersive and feminine as receptive? If we see movement/direction in that sense do you disagree?

Because I, being a solely tropical astrologer, with no sidereal pretensions or uses, explicitly disagree that masculine and feminine is about where the 'power focus is' as I said in my last posts - it is not about a locus, it is about a direction. Masculine disperses out, feminine receives or contains.

Perhaps the better thing to do is to find a reference which shows that tropical astrologers overwhelmingly do not connect masculine with outward movement, or a sense of dispersal, and do not connect feminine with receptive qualities, and those which contain or altered/moved.

It is difficult to tell what exactly you mean by these things now as your articles, as you now admit, do not reflect your current understandings, but, having been directed to those articles, it is now difficult to grasp which you really believe.

I guess what I would say is we ought to find a quote, then, to support your view that Aries is an internally focused sign - because this relates to your focus on the locus being internal or external and ignores movement altogether.

Even if you agree that Projects is a better word, where I am using 'moves outward', then even here we see that actually Aries isn't internally focused, but is in fact expressive instead, or outwardly moving, or, if you prefer, projecting outwards.
After that we can look at why you then link stubbornness with masculine signs. But I think we need to go one step at a time.

Because ultimately I still want to get back to the opening assumptions you made on this thread, but until we can follow the logic trail back we can't do that. Right now there's an assumption that modern tropical astrolgoers don't understand masculine/feminine, but the more I look into your articles at least, the more convinced I am that actually modern tropical astrolgoers do understand it just fine, and actually the problem is in how you understand it.
I have cited my references from a classics publication by someone more educated on the matter than either of us, so it's striking to me that this is not enough especially when, so far at least, we have no similar references to support your view that modern tropical astrologers really do get it the wrong way around.

I think this is what we need.
Last edited by Paul on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

49
Paul wrote:Obviously if Martin disagrees, he is free to create spin off threads, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that we do not have a sense of ownership when we create threads - it makes more sense to me to bring together any research or compelling evidence in regards tropical signs reflecting sidereal ones.

Now having said that, it doesn't appear to me that this is what Ernst Wilhelm's MP3 or website that Neptunehead has linked to is actually setting out to show that, and for that reason, may not be relevant in this thread.

Instead what Ernst seems to be arguing is that we ought to use a Tropical Zodiac and Sidereal Nakshatras, and whilst that idea is interesting, it really does not belong in a thread with this focus, but could make a fascinating thread on its own.
I have to agree with Paul on both points here. I'd rather not start splitting threads, but I do ask that the focus of the current thread be respected. A separate thread on Ernst Wilhelm's ideas would be fine, as long as it is not entirely about scrapping the sidereal zodiac. ('Tropical Indian astrology' would be an OK topic on the Indian forum, but not on the sidereal one.)

Also, posts (not to mention entire threads) of the type I don't get why people are still discussing this when it has already been settled by my favourite teacher/book/etc are not really in the spirit of Skyscript, and I would actively discourage those.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

50
Therese Hamilton wrote: Isn't it easier to comprehend a person who seeks the company of others and solicits their input for his own actions? In practice this would mean that entrepreneurs (for example) would have to have a strong dose of "I can do it myself" (active) rather than "I need your advice before I can act. Let's do this as a group." (passive)
...
But in practice women (the feminine gender) tend to be sociable outgoing creatures compared to men.
I think one of the fundamental problems here is in presuming that Active/Passive has a direct correlate with men that we know and women that we know. This anthropomorphising is probably not only unhelpful but actually misleading. Yes, in practice women tend to be sociable creatures but this informs us nothing at all of Aristotle's concept of Passive Intellect.

And of course men tend to be just as sociable anyway - I disagree with the notion that women are somehow more sociable than men. Ultimately we can only take outdated gender roles so far, especially when comparing gender roles of Aristotle's times with gender roles today.

You continue this focus on actual gender roles in society today and, in my opinion, confuse it with Active/Passive intelligence repeatedly in your articles also, where, in continuing your Static (masculine) and Dynamic (feminine) analogies you cite that women like to change their outfits (dynamic) and men don't (static).
John Gray also emphasizes what could be called the static/dynamic principle in relation to men and women. Women are very much at home with change and diversity, which can be shown in many ways. For example, women often enjoy changing their clothing or hair styles to suit their feelings. Men are much more likely to wear ?uniforms? to show their status and position in the world. Over a period of many years men?s clothing styles remain basically the same. Men in general don?t possess women?s natural affinity for change; a man looking forward to a coming change in life may experience anxiety and feelings of insecurity. However, a man with many planets in the sidereal earth or water signs and with a prominent Moon is likely to take change comfortably in stride.
But for me this is far too simplistic and takes Aristotle's Active/Passive intelligence way outside what is meant by the terms, insofar as we understand masculine/feminine in astrology to mean, because in astrology these terms 'masculine' and 'feminine' are astrologically reserved technical words. They do not mean "having the quality of the men in society" and "having the quality of women in society" which seems to be pretty much the tack that you take. Instead they relate to fundamental qualities or concepts, which, according to you at least in this thread, pertain to Active/Passive Intellect as per Aristotle.

We cannot have it both ways. I agree that the idea of masculine/feminine is if not directly linked to Aristotle's Active/Passive intelligence then basically on the same kind of gist as it. But with that in mind, it's definitely nothing to do with societal outlooks on gender roles and to conflate the two is to make a serious mistake in understanding the concept in my opinion.
But my theme song (very repetitious by now) is that these observed characteristics are really sidereal. As I've said often before, this understanding is credited initially to Cyril Fagan.
...
I tend to see that tropical astrologers simply have a different definition of active/passive than was understood in ancient times.
Yes, you do, but why? Let's actually demonstrate that it's true, rather than assert it as so. This is my whole point, surely if it was so obvious we could cite tonnes of examples of how tropical qualities are really sidereal. So far in our discussion we've gotten as far as masculine/feminine signs, but really this hasn't been demonstrated either. As per my source I cited on active/passsive intellect.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

51
To wrap up some points briefly
Too much emphasis on motion as such places the wrong emphasis on polarity. (So I disagree that motion is a primary focus of polarity.)
Insofar as you bring up Aristotelian ideas of Active/Passive Intellect in how it is understood by Tropical Astrologers I do think that the of dispersing outwards and collecting/receiving/holding inwards really is important. That may not be true in a blanket sense that motion is right emphasis for polarity, but, rather, in the context we have it here, in how tropical astrologers understand this particular polarity, then I do think that this implicit idea of motion is important.

I will try to find some quotations from modern tropical astrologers which summarise this point, if my own stance isn't acceptable (which is presumably fair enough as I don't pretend to speak on behalf of Tropical Astrologers).

To continue with some of the points I made in my previous post, in your article you use embedded gender roles as you perceive them in society and use these as proofs for your thesis regarding gender swapping in Tropical astrology. As I said before, I find this to be, bluntly, a disastrous approach as
I believe it totally misses what we mean by masculine/feminine in astrological terms.

In astrology the ideas of masculine/feminine signs are more likely to be related to dryness (masculine) and moisture (feminine), as I alluded to in a previous post, and therefore the analogy of sand dispersing when dry or clumping when moist may be a much better analogy than actually looking at every day men and every day women. Another analogy may even be to consider the sperm dispersing outward, whilst the ovum is relatively stationary and receives or contains or holds the sperm.

There's obviously a degree of overlap in that we might expect, in certain circumstances, for masculine signs to represent, say, the woman will have a boy, and in feminine signs, that the woman will have a girl.

However in your article, you make the point by blatantly pointing out that women like to talk, talking and communicating is very much in the realm of the Moon, but the tropical astrologers associate communication with air signs, which aren't ruled by the Moon. But this seems to involve a hell of a lot of picking and choosing as it suits you. Let me demonstrate.

http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/amalefe2.htm
In general, women enjoy talking. A woman under stress tends to get more and more overwhelmed and emotionally distraught. She finds release in talking about her problems with family or friends, and will often ask advice on how she should act.

To astrologers this sounds like the Moon and Venus, the two feminine planets. But, if we look at the Tropical zodiac, we find that the sharing, communicative signs are the masculine fire and air signs:
But note the conclusion here, linking the feminine planets and noting discrepancy because of masculine signs - which of course is logically unsound considering that the planets such as Venus have both a masculine and feminine counter part. Also note the absence of Mercury here in the list of planets, that will be important in a second.
Tropical Gemini is often an avid conversationalist, is curious about the world, sociable and friendly. This sign overlays sidereal Taurus, ruled by Venus and also the Moon?s exaltation sign. The Moon and Venus are sociable and friendly. As a sign, Taurus traditionally rules the throat and tongue used in speech.
And presumably because Tropical Gemini is only ruled by Mercury we don't have a hit, but because that area is ruled by Sidereal Venus, one of the planets you listed, we do have a hit.
Tropical Libra is very accommodating and sociable. It can see many sides to a problem or event, and is said to need others to define itself. Tropical Libra overlays sidereal Virgo. Sociability and the ability to accommodate others are traditional feminine traits. As the lord of Virgo, effervescent Mercury is communicative, mutable and many-sided.
And suddenly we have the exact opposite logic used, with wild abandon. Now we have tropical Venus ruling. THis is totally ignored. We now have sidereal Mercury ruling, and we're told that Mercury is communicative, mutable and many-sided, and so we have a hit.

But wait, Mercury wasn't listed in the list of planets you gave! Venus was. So if we're allowing Venus as a hit in the previous sign and not allowing Mercury, why are we suddenly allowing Mercury and not allowing Venus!?

The answer is obvious - we are picking and choosing to suit our arguments. When the planet supports a sidereal perspective it is used, when it is not, it mysteriously, stops being used.

And underneath all this is the assumption that actually the planets, whether masculine or feminine, will inform us on the signs, and whether their gender has been altered. But of course it cannot, because, as I said back in May, the planets are not what defines the criterion for whether a sign is masculine or feminine - my subsequent quote from Ptolemy should show this. I can qutoe further, if there is disagreement on this issue, to show it is instead based on the idea of moisture and dryness and also on the fact that Aries, coming first, is masculine.

We have no references here to ideas of whether or not Venus and Moon are feminine and therefore have some especial link. In fact whether Venus and the Moon are feminine, and whether they rule certain signs or not will not inform us on whether those signs are masculine or feminine, and nor will using gender observations on talkativeness be persuasive when we simply chop and change whatever planet we wish provided we can make some argument for it being sidereal, especially when the logic that is thusly invented is ignored when we leverage it to the Tropical zodiac.

And underlying all these assumptions about gender expressions - which aren't even relevant to our astrological technical terms masculine and feminine that we utilise - is all from pop-psychology books along the lines of Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, with the author cited multiple times to make the case.
Indeed, the findings of western social scientists seem to agree with the traditional definition of sign polarity found in the Indian texts: The even or female signs are said to be ?soft? or yielding. Masculine signs are said to be firm or ?cruel.? The meaning of this seems to be that the male signs are relatively inflexible and firm compared to the more adaptable female signs.
I'm not sure which western social scientists you mean, unless you mean to include "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" as representing western social science? But in terms of firm/cruel and soft/yielding, this actually informs us nothing at all about Tropical astrology, unless we think that A) 'masculine' and men as portrayed though pop-psychology books are an analogous concept such that the concept of masculine relates directly to gender observations about men, and B) the ruler of the signs are those which determine the gender of those signs.
This seems to be essentially the ideas that you work with through the article, and I reject both assumptions.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

52
Paul wrote:
Some of these points you've repeated here anyway but in order to get more of a grasp of where you are coming from I read both of these articles before responding. Now I see that in your reply here you admit that your views have changed. Well that's okay, but one of the other reasons for my focus on movement was because in your article which I linked to here you do say two interesting things:
Masculine: "Static principle (centered in self)"
Feminine: "Dynamic principle (moves outward)
I have to be away from the computer for some hours this morning, but the view above isn't correct, or at least not explained properly. I've tried to explain my most recent view in my posts on this thread yesterday. I should have more time to reply later today.

Male: power within, emanating outward in creative action (Solar)
"Static" isn't a good term. Firmness, determination and strength are better terms.

Female: linking to others for support and verification (Lunar: does not focus on internal strength; receptivity to outside forces)

EDIT
Paul wrote:
However, what is being discussed here is whether or not tropical signs reflect the underlying sidereal signs - in other words, tropical astrologers are secretly, without their realising, assigning traits to their signs that are based on the sidereal zodiac.
That's funny! Most likely true, but I like the 'secretly' term! I'm working on my reply now (afternoon, California time).
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

53
Paul wrote:
...but one of the other reasons for my focus on movement was because in your article which I linked to here you do say two interesting things:
Masculine: "Static principle (centered in self)"
Feminine: "Dynamic principle (moves outward)

But my whole point for quoting and discussing the Aristotelian philosophy is to show that far from tropical astrologers getting this wrong, what appears to be incorrect is your own understanding of it.
I believe I?ve clarified this issue in recent posts. So I?m omitting replies to parts of your posts that discuss this issue.
Therese wrote:
No, I think that 'motion' may not be the best way of understanding these terms. I think we both agree that Aristotle's 'active' generates its actions from within, but the idea of 'reception or being moved for the passive' is a bit confusing.

Paul replied:
But the idea of generating and observing/receiving, or, moving and moved, is exactly how others who are better informed on the matter describe it.
Whether we find that confusing or not is another matter.

The point is that now I have demonstrated by using a source (and I could offer a couple more) that motion, or rather direction (say of force) is one way in which we can understand Aristotle's concepts of Active/Passive intelligence and it is a way that we can see quite well reflected in the understanding of masculine and feminine as tropical astrologers use it today.
I?d say to clarify this issue we?d have to look at the lives and charts of individuals. Always, the pragmatic approach is the evidence for what we?re attempting to describe.
Therese wrote:
No, I don?t see that movement or direction is the important part. What seems to be important is where the power focus is: within or outside oneself.

Paul replied:
Do you mean I ought to mention tropical astrologers' sources which demonstrate the concept of masculine being dynamic and feminine as being passive, or masculine as dispersive and feminine as receptive? If we see movement/direction in that sense do you disagree?
I?d say that a so-called masculine emphases would be more like the self-made man, and the feminine emphasis would be (as I?ve said) linking with others, asking help and advice. It?s perhaps less confusing to dispense with labels and concentrate on actual observed behavior.
Because I, being a solely tropical astrologer, with no sidereal pretensions or uses, explicitly disagree that masculine and feminine is about where the 'power focus is' as I said in my last posts - it is not about a locus, it is about a direction. Masculine disperses out, feminine receives or contains.
No, that?s not the sidereal view. I don?t believe that looking at the situation in that way is accurate. But if that is your explanation, we can summarize our positions as this discussion nears its close (except for the discussion of actual birth charts if we choose to go on).
It is difficult to tell what exactly you mean by these things now as your articles, as you now admit, do not reflect your current understandings, but, having been directed to those articles, it is now difficult to grasp which you really believe.
It?s best to concentrate only on my latest article on the triplicities and sidereal signs, which is still listed at the top of my web site. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

Also, my understanding has remained stable on the natures of the Sun and Moon.
I guess what I would say is we ought to find a quote, then, to support your view that Aries is an internally focused sign - because this relates to your focus on the locus being internal or external and ignores movement altogether.
Not a quote, but the actual lives of individuals. By internal focus I mean that motivation and strength comes from within. The person doesn?t look outside him or herself for verification or approval of his or her actions.
Even if you agree that Projects is a better word, where I am using 'moves outward', then even here we see that actually Aries isn't internally focused, but is in fact expressive instead, or outwardly moving, or, if you prefer, projecting outwards. After that we can look at why you then link stubbornness with masculine signs. But I think we need to go one step at a time.
Think of the Sun: The Sun is the source of light and life for our earth. The Sun remains in exactly the same orbit trough the centuries. The Sun is Fixed, but its radiation is the source of all Life. This is masculine symbolism.
Because ultimately I still want to get back to the opening assumptions you made on this thread, but until we can follow the logic trail back we can't do that. Right now there's an assumption that modern tropical astrolgoers don't understand masculine/feminine...
It?s not so much a lack of understanding as a different view and understanding, sort of like seeing another part of the elephant (as the story where each blind person touched a different part of the elephant and saw that as the entire nature of the animal). This is why each of us is having trouble relating to what the other person is saying.

I?ll say again that as astrologers we?re on firmer ground when considering solar and lunar symbolism. We won?t get far with finger pointing and telling the other person that they?re not getting it right. That only sets up an antagonistic platform.

(I?m being interrupted....will continue a bit later here or in another post.)
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

54
Paul wrote: I actually listened to about 20 minutes or more of the MP3 but it's 3 hours long. It wasn't obvious to me from the first 20 mins that the research was going to be presented to put this argument to bed. Perhaps it is. If so, is there a part in particular we could listen to. 3 hours is a very long time to listen speculatively to in case the argument is raised and put to bed.
Thank you, Paul.

Gone through the 3 hours again and here are the relevant parts; although I won?t be doing any justice to the entire lecture.

Hope it promotes more discussion, and interests everyone here.

0-18 mins ? the importance to Parashara and Jaimini.

Nakshatras

18 mins 45 sec - 26 mins ? Why Astronomy is important to Astrology

All planets move in 3 directions along the ecliptic ? east to west, up, and down. Nakshatras only move east to west. Why the Galactic Centre is important to the ?Nakshatra Day? concept.

Ayanamsa

26 mins ? 41 mins 15 secs

Too many different schools of thought each use different stars to mark the start of a Nakshartra. No old texts give an accurate location of a star within 3 degrees of accuracy to calculate an Ayanamsa ? why? - Because stars are not fixed. The ONLY fixed point in our galaxy is the Galactic Centre. The middle of Mula (The Root) is important ? scientific valid because it is FIXED.
Revati star is probably best Nakshatra to base Ayanamsa according to old texts. Revati Star marks the beginning of Sidereal learnings ? important point.

41 mins 16 secs ? 69 mins

Why the Nakshartas (Sidereal Stars) are completely different to the Ecliptic (Tropical Signs) based on both astronomical calculations. Mathematically, there is no Sidereal Zodiac, only Tropical.

69 mins ? 81 mins

Signs are defined by the motion of the Sun relevant to the Ecliptic. The Zodiac is the relationship of the Earth to the Sun. Ecliptic is nothing to do with the stars from our Astrology Earth based science.

82 mins ? 102 mins

Why the Indian culture calculated their Zodiac 3 weeks late ? Why the ingress of Sun into Capricorn should be calculated via Tropical, not Sidereal. Lack of knowledge regarding precision ? sages observing just the stars. There is much evidence that ancient Hindu?s were using the Tropical Zodiac, pre 500 AD.

102 mins ? 120 mins

Why Tropical signs are more descriptive, 75% of the time based on house lordships. Why the scientific community laugh at Astrology whilst gold still melts at a specific point.

121 mins ? 180 mins

Ernst freestyles on Parashara and Jaimini in Tropical plus questions & answers.

55
Paul wrote:
Therese wrote:
Isn't it easier to comprehend a person who seeks the company of others and solicits their input for his own actions? In practice this would mean that entrepreneurs (for example) would have to have a strong dose of "I can do it myself" (active) rather than "I need your advice before I can act. Let's do this as a group." (passive)
...
But in practice women (the feminine gender) tend to be sociable outgoing creatures compared to men.

Paul wrote:
I think one of the fundamental problems here is in presuming that Active/Passive has a direct correlate with men that we know and women that we know. This anthropomorphising is probably not only unhelpful but actually misleading. Yes, in practice women tend to be sociable creatures but this informs us nothing at all of Aristotle's concept of Passive Intellect.

And of course men tend to be just as sociable anyway - I disagree with the notion that women are somehow more sociable than men. Ultimately we can only take outdated gender roles so far, especially when comparing gender roles of Aristotle's times with gender roles today.
I don?t want to turn this topic into a gender argument. I can only say that I suspect I?ve had twice your number of years on earth to observe human nature. I?m also aware that this "outdated/modern" male/female debate is still on-going in professional circles. I do have two psychology degrees, and I receive the daily San Francisco newspaper. It's rather amusing to continue reading articles on both sides of this on-going debate. Most of these articles are supported by professional research. So I?d rather leave this distraction for now.
You continue this focus on actual gender roles in society today and, in my opinion, confuse it with Active/Passive intelligence repeatedly in your articles also, where, in continuing your Static (masculine) and Dynamic (feminine) analogies you cite that women like to change their outfits (dynamic) and men don't (static).
I?ve already said that I?ve left behind the static/dynamic view. I really need to modify articles on my web site.
Quote from Therese's article:
John Gray also emphasizes what could be called the static/dynamic principle in relation to men and women. Women are very much at home with change and diversity, which can be shown in many ways. For example, women often enjoy changing their clothing or hair styles to suit their feelings. Men are much more likely to wear ?uniforms? to show their status and position in the world.

Over a period of many years men?s clothing styles remain basically the same. Men in general don?t possess women?s natural affinity for change; a man looking forward to a coming change in life may experience anxiety and feelings of insecurity. However, a man with many planets in the sidereal earth or water signs and with a prominent Moon is likely to take change comfortably in stride.
Paul wrote:
But for me this is far too simplistic and takes Aristotle's Active/Passive intelligence way outside what is meant by the terms...

This quote is basically comparing solar (fixed) and lunar (change) symbolism. The article you are citing was written in 2004, nine years before my Triplicity/Zodiac article, and it?s confusing to mix concepts between the two, not to mention that I should find time to modify the 2004 article.
...insofar as we understand masculine/feminine in astrology to mean, because in astrology these terms 'masculine' and 'feminine' are astrologically reserved technical words. They do not mean "having the quality of the men in society" and "having the quality of women in society" which seems to be pretty much the tack that you take.
Yes, I?d say these terms do relate to the behavior and attitudes of men and women, and this is a different view that is tied to the sidereal zodiac. I know that this is not the tropical view, which is your understanding. I suppose we could say that this is a major difference in viewing polarity in the sidereal zodiac. So you can?t categorically state that these attributes don?t relate to sidereal signs because you have never used the sidereal zodiac in your work. You can say, however, that those concepts don't apply in the tropical zodiac.
Therese wrote:
But my theme song (very repetitious by now) is that these observed characteristics are really sidereal. As I've said often before, this understanding is credited initially to Cyril Fagan.
...
I tend to see that tropical astrologers simply have a different definition of active/passive than was understood in ancient times.

Paul replied:
Yes, you do, but why? Let's actually demonstrate that it's true, rather than assert it as so. This is my whole point, surely if it was so obvious we could cite tons of examples of how tropical qualities are really sidereal.
Yes, we can do that with example birth charts and life histories.
So far in our discussion we've gotten as far as masculine/feminine signs, but really this hasn't been demonstrated either. As per my source I cited on active/passive intellect.
I have explained active/passive as much as possible in my Triplicity/Sign article.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/aatriplicities2013.htm

I don?t know how to make the concepts any clearer. Paul, I think you are attempting a non-existent argument. We have several points of agreement that you are ignoring. I think it's time that each of us briefly summarizes our understanding of signs in our preferred zodiac, and then examine some birth charts which we see as supporting those concepts.

We have beaten Aristotle into the ground, which is saying a lot considering that neither of us has any formal education in Greek philosophy. (Well, I probably had a course or two that I've forgotten about over the years.)
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

Symbolism of the I Ching

56
Richrd Wilhelm?s translation of the I Ching pretty well synchronizes with my understanding of universal symbolism as related to the Sun and Moon. Perhaps these hexagrams also help us to understand Aristotle. Quotations are exact from Wilhelm.

1. CH?IEN - THE CREATIVE [Solar symbolism]

The first hexagram is made up of six unbroken lines. These unbroken lines stand for the primal power, which is light-giving, active, strong, and of the spirit. The hexagram is consistently strong in character, and since it is without weakness, its essence is power or energy. Its image is heaven. Its energy is represented as unrestricted by any fixed conditions in space and is therefore conceived of as motion[!]. Time is regarded as the basis of this motion. Thus the hexagram includes also the power of time and the power of persisting in time, that is, duration.

In relation to the human world, it denotes the creative action of the holy man or sage, of the ruler or leader of men, who through his power awakens and develops their higher nature. (page 1)

2. K?UN - THE RECEPTIVE [Lunar symbolism]

This hexagram is made up of broken lines only. The broken line represents the dark, yielding, receptive primal power of yin. The attribute of the hexagram is devotion; its image is the earth. It is the perfect complement of The Creative?the complement, not the opposite, for the Receptive does not combat the Creative, but completes it. It represents nature in contrast to spirit. Earth in contrast to heaven, space as against time, the female-maternal as against the male-paternal. However, as applied to human affairs, the principle of this complementary relationship is found not only in relation between man and woman, but also in that between prince and minister and between father and son...(p. 9-10)

Applied to human affairs, therefore, what the hexagram indicates is action in conformity with the situation. The person in question is not in an independent position, but is acting as an assistant. This means that he must achieve something. It is not his task to try to lead?that would only make him lose his way?but to let himself be led. (p. 11)
The I Ching or Book of Changes, translated by Richard Wilhelm, Pantheon Books, 1964.

-------------------------End Quotes----------------------

These two hexagrams describe my understanding of solar and lunar energy. And I'm now much clearer on the concept of motion. These general principles may be applied to signs in the sidereal zodiac. The Solar/Lunar brackets are mine. So, to summarize:

Solar/male: primal power, which is light-giving, active, strength, energy conceived of as motion (!): the power of persisting in time, that is, duration

Lunar/female: yielding, receptive primal power; the female-maternal as against the male-paternal; the principle of complementary relationship; the task is to let oneself be led

Thus, we have the Solar principles of light giving active strength, persistence, duration and the concept of motion

...and the Lunar principles of receptivity and complimentary relationship plus the task of being led rather than leading (cooperation?)

This is good enough for me as a basis for understanding male and female principles in relation to astrology. Solar: Sun/Jupiter and Lunar: Venus/Moon

Then we could try to decide which signs of the zodiac best reflect these principles.

But, Paul, you would have to briefly list of what you expect from Male and Female tropical signs. Or if you prefer more neutral terminology, Odd and Even signs. Then we can compare principles by looking at birth charts. I'm secure in my understanding of solar/lunar/male/female principles. Rather than continuing to criticize my views, it would be helpful to see the concepts that you feel are secure and clear for the tropical zodiac.

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

57
Neptunehead: I have let your latest post stand, as it may be construed as an answer to a question from Paul, but I think we have heard quite enough of Ernst Wilhelm on this thread. If you want to continue discussing his views on why the tropical zodiac should be used instead of the sidereal, please take it to the Indian forum. If you want to discuss Wilhelm's use of (sidereal) nakshatras, you're welcome to do so in this forum, but please start a separate thread.

Map: I have removed your latest post, which (a) was about why the tropical zodiac is better than the sidereal, which is inappropriate on this forum; and (b) used a number of terms specific to Indian astrology and probably unintelligible to many reading the post. If you want to continue that discussion, please take it to the Indian forum.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/