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This is a good question because there are several techniques used in sports horary, but this is the first one I've seen that uses the 5th house.

In his just published book, The Horary Textbook, John Frawley devotes a chapter or so to sports astrology. The answer as to which house to use is the always infallible, "It depends."

Is this casual interest in the match? If so then Liverpool is "any old team" and gets the 7th house. If the querent has a strong identification with Liverpool, ("my" team), then Liverpool gets the first house. If the querent is betting on the match, something that is illegal in most of the US and therefore no one would dare do it, then the nature of the question changes from "Will Liverpool win," to "Will I make money if I bet on Liverpool?". In that case the sport is secondary and the significator of the 8th house (bookie's money) and what its doing (applying to my significator so I win) gives us the answer.

The problem I have with the system in the article is that it doesn't take Liverpool's opponent into consideration. If we use the 5th as Liverpool then the 11th becomes Liverpool's opponent or open enemy. There should be some indication of victory for the opposing team. I didn't see one. Does this indicate a tie? Ties or draws are far more common in European football matches than they are in US sports. Ties are not permitted in baseball or basketball for instance, and although they can occur in American football they are relatively rare.

On the other hand, author may have good success with that system. No system is foolproof and I wouldn't dismiss this one or any reasonable one without obtaining some results.

Hope this helps.

Tom

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I'm not really sure I accept that it doesn't matter whether you use the time and location of the querent or the astrologer, you should get exactly the same answer. Surely, if voc means anything, it should make a difference whether one chart has it and the other doesn't. I have actually seen examples giving both methods and the outcomes have been very different.

I'm also not sure I would use the 5th house. Although the 5th is the house I would use in sport questions such as 'should I join the team?' in battles of any sort, which is essentially what football competitions are about, I would use 1st/7th, being the house of the open enemy.
Is this casual interest in the match? If so then Liverpool is "any old team" and gets the 7th house.
Well, in that case, who gets the 1st? The querent I suppose. But if you're asking a question about 'any old team' then why ask the question? Of course, this goes back to the issue of whether you use horary for these things or an event chart. I would always use an event chart.

I agree with Tom's comment about the need for some indication of victory for the opponent. And the use of the 11th house for an opponent doesn't make any sense given what the 11th traditionally stands for.

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Tom, you mentioned The Horary Textbook, John Frawley and chapter to sports astrology- does some of these (John's ) articles may be find on Internet?
And if I draw event chart you suggest me to use 1/7 house, but does 1 house stands always for host team, I read somewhere that 1 house stands for fovourite team? And does exsists some rules when will goals appear (timing)?
Thank you!
Goca

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Hi Sue,
Quote:
Is this casual interest in the match? If so then Liverpool is "any old team" and gets the 7th house.


Well, in that case, who gets the 1st? The querent I suppose. But if you're asking a question about 'any old team' then why ask the question? Of course, this goes back to the issue of whether you use horary for these things or an event chart. I would always use an event chart.
The querent is not an important part of the question (he has no role to play), therefore the opponent gets the first house.The querent isn't doing anything or expecting anything personal in a question like this. While it's true people not having some kind of emotional stake in the game are not likely to ask the question, they still might want to know. Let's take the Super Bowl. If Nashville is playing Denver, I couldn't care less who wins, but I might want to cast the horary anyway because I like sports or because I dare to show off my horary prowess. However if the Giants, the local team for me, are playing Nashville I would have an emotional investment in the game. I agree with you that the event chart is a better way to go.

As for the VOC Moon, it does serve a purpose. If we are casting a horary or casting an event chart, and there is a strong favorite, the usual delineation for the VOC Moon fits nicely. Nothing much happens, i.e., the favorite wins. "Nothing much happens" means that the expected result occurs.

If we are dealing with a sport like boxing, where there is a sitting champion who will either retain his crown or lose it, as opposed to a season long effort to obtain top ranking or a tournament like Wimbledon, then we would use the 10th house for the champion and the 4th for the oppponent. Again the VOC Moon would indicate the champion retains his crown.

Tom, you mentioned The Horary Textbook, John Frawley and chapter to sports astrology- does some of these (John's ) articles may be find on Internet?

And if I draw event chart you suggest me to use 1/7 house, but does 1 house stands always for host team, I read somewhere that 1 house stands for fovourite team? And does exsists some rules when will goals appear (timing)?
Thank you!
Goca
John has a horary article on this website, but I don't know if it mentions sports. To the best of my knowledge none of his other writings are online, but I could be wrong about that. I would strongly recommend that you purchase The Horary Textbook. He covers so much in depth and the explanations are clear and easily understood. Since astrology is astrology much of what is in the book can be adapted to natal astrology. I completed John's horary course along with a fellow member of my astrology group. When we met last Sunday I asked him how he liked the book and he said he learned things in that book that he didn't learn in the course. I agreed. It is not inexpensive, but unlike so many other astrology books it is worth more than you'll pay.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there are several ways to approach sports astrology, and giving the home or host team the ASC and the visiting team the DSC is one of them. Another method is Bernadette Brady's technique of using Lilly's castle besiegement rules. I prefer favorite and underdog and I haven't tried Brady's method, but she enjoyed a good measure of success with it. There is more than one way to skin a cat, I guess.

Finally John uses the Moon to tell us "the flow of the game." The astrologer mentally advances the Moon about 5 degrees and notes what she is doing in order to give us that information. From that he's been able to predict who scores first and whether or not a game will end in regulation time or go into overtime.

John has written a book titled Sports Astrology that has not been published. I'm not sure if it is incomplete or there are other reasons, but perhaps if we hold weekly demonstrations at his home until he publishes it, we can speed him along.

Best wishes,

Tom

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Quote:
Finally John uses the Moon to tell us "the flow of the game." The astrologer mentally advances the Moon about 5 degrees and notes what she is doing in order to give us that information. From that he's been able to predict who scores first and whether or not a game will end in regulation time or go into overtime.

John has written a book titled Sports Astrology that has not been published. I'm not sure if it is incomplete or there are other reasons, but perhaps if we hold weekly demonstrations at his home until he publishes it, we can speed him along.

Best wishes,

Tom
[/color]
Only 5 degees of Moon? Can you tell us some example?
And where does John live? I am ready to demonstrate!
Goca

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Hi Goca,

This is it for me and astrology this morning. In the Astrologer's Apprentice No 19, John did pick the winner of the 2002 European Cup final. He said it would go to the favorite 2-1 in regulation time, but the underdog would score first He said that Real Madrid was clearly the strongest team in the field and that they were worth backing. There was no time or space left in the issue for an in depth discussion, however.

In issue 20 page 45 he wrote:

The chart is set for the time and place of kick-off [May 15, 2002 7:45 pm BST. Glasgow]. The favorites are given the ascendant and its ruler, the underdogs get the Descendant. The Moon shows the flow of events. For a football match, we are concerned with its movement over only five degrees; a degree or two more can be allowed in a game that can run to extra-time and penalties. The only significant testimonies in this chart are the Moon's antiscial conjunctions with first Venus (lord 7) and then Mars (Lord ASC). It is the Moon's final aspect that counts.

With so few testimonies there will probably be few goals. This rule is far from infallible, but it works often enough. That there is strong testimony for the underdogs (Moon conjunct Venus) suggests that they will probably score. That the Moon's next and final aspect is with Lord 1 shows that the favorites will win. If the underdogs score and there will not be many goals 2-1 would seem a likely result. The Moon's aspect with Mars happens withing the five-degree limit so the match will be decided in normal time. And so it proved."

John lives in London, but he is a family man and the demonstrations might prove disruptive to the innocents at home. I suggest a less disruptive place for our demonstration, say Parliament.

Tom

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This is it for me and astrology this morning.
I?ll nip in with an argument then, while you?re not looking :)
The querent is not an important part of the question (he has no role to play), therefore the opponent gets the first house.
I don?t understand the logic of this. We are obviously talking about Lilly?s approach (the references in the article show that), but I feel Lilly would have used the 1st house to signify Liverpool in this question because he advised placing people with no discernable relationship to the querent on the ascendant.

See Lilly?s comment on p.156 where he states that had the question on p.152 not been put from a mother concerned about her missing son, but had instead been asked about a missing person generally, he would have put the missing person on the ascendant.

Also, in the two shipping charts that Lilly uses as examples in his resolution of first house matters, he takes judgement of the ship directly from the ascendant. The first horary asks about the safety of the ship, and since the first house signifies the 'general state' of something, including its health and vitality, most of the questions that Lilly has categorized under 'first house matters' are those that relate to a threat against, or a reassurance of, health, safety and well-being.

Normally ships and travel are 9th house matters, but Lilly argues (p.157) that since the judgement concerns the prospect of safety or ruin of the ship, its crew and passengers, the ship becomes a vessel of collective concern, and the collective wellbeing of those who have no particular relationship to the querent are judged directly from the ascendant, its ruler, and the Moon, (in the same that the ascendant in a mundane chart will signify the overall state and well being of the nation).

This is not to say that a ship, nor by extension cars or other means of transport, are fundamentally given a fist house signification, but when they take up the role of container for life over which there is fear or concern, and where it is a general concern - rather than one affecting a brother, partner or another party where there is a relationship we can attribute to other houses - we allow the querent's concern to identify immediately and directly with the matter under investigation and effectively take them out of the equation.


That justifies the element of assigning ?collectives? we are a part of or in sympathy with, to the ascendant. But the general rule I understand from Lilly?s work is that if a relationship exists between the querent and the quesited, signification is set according to that relationship (Goca - it?s completely irrelevant whether they have been given a name or not). Where there is no definable relationship in such matters, the ascendant can be used instead.

I advise students that one way to tell whether the querent has more than a 'general' relationship with the quesited is to consider whether there is likely to be a personal meeting or some sort of reunion between them, or an influence upon the quesited by the querent. If there is, then the relationship can usually be defined as personal rather than general, and in that case the querent remains involved in the signification. Otherwise, if the querent has no personal involvement in the matter under scrutiny, (they ask about their favourite pop star or someone they have read about in the paper for example) they can be removed from the symbolism of the chart so that the ascendant ? the focus of the chart - is given to whatever is the focus of the question.

Why would it make sense to assign the party that opposes the focus of the question to the ascendant instead?

Although I share Sue?s reservations about assigning Liverpool to the 5th house, at least one can argue a logic in it ? when we ask about purchasing a particular house, we look to the 4th house which rules property matters generally. When Lilly asked about the Bishop of Canterbury, he took his signification from the 9th house because it has general signification over 'men of the church'. A case can clearly be made that in asking about a particular sport?s team we can draw judgement from the house that rules sport and leisure activities generally. It doesn?t feel comfortable though ? a football match is fundamentally a clash of two opponents and the element of overcoming an adversity which we find in 1st-7th house matters seems more apt for this kind of event.

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There are times, and this is one of them, that e-mail informing me of this post, is just too quick and too distracting.

I don?t understand the logic of this. We are obviously talking about Lilly?s approach (the references in the article show that), but I feel Lilly would have used the 1st house to signify Liverpool in this question because he advised placing people with no discernable relationship to the querent on the ascendant.
I offer a concession to Deb and Sue on this point with clarification. It is true that if the querent in a sports horary has absolutely no stake or interest in the outcome, that the chart cannot be judged. Where do we assign the teams then? This goes back to the very basic idea that the querent has to ask a sincere question. Sue made this point and I didn't answer her correctly. Simply put: no interest - no chart.

Second point: Let's say the dreadful Philadelphia Eagles defeat the magnificent New York (They really play in New Jersey) Giants on the Eagles road to the Super Bowl. And the Eagles will play the Nashville Titans a team I don't care about at all. My question is: Will those rotten, cheating, low down Eagles, win the Super Bowl? Well, the low down rotten cheating Ealges are my enemy, and therefore they get the 7th house. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and their opponent, so they get the first house. Note if I asked will Nashville, the team I don't care about, defeat the low down Eagles, the significators would be the same. The Eagles are my enemy. Nashville merely an insturment of defeat. I may not care much about Nashville at all, but I want my enemy defeated. The Eagles are my enemy even though during the regular season I don't think about them much. So in this particular instance, I don't have much of a stake in the outcome (other than petty spite) because neither team is "mine," but I'd take a perverse pleasure in seeing the Eagles lose. In this case that the team that I have no relationship with does get the first house.

Normally ships and travel are 9th house matters, but Lilly argues (p.157) that since the judgement concerns the prospect of safety or ruin of the ship, its crew and passengers, the ship becomes a vessel of collective concern,
I understand this and other points made, but the ship's journey is not a contest. In any kind of a contest chart we need a contestant and an opponent. The querent in a contest chart is not a player and cannot effect the outcome, but has some emotional stake in the game. The querent regarding a question concering shipping may not be able to infuence the outcome of the journey, but might be a passenger or own goods being shipped and therefore has an emotional stake in the outcome, so he becomes part of the ship, or the ship becomes part of him. But the ship, unless it is a warship in time of war does not have a open enemy. I think assigning tides winds and storms as potential enemies might be bit of a stretch. Also the outcome of the ship's journey is a question of safety not victory.

The argument of a collective is interesting, and seems to apply, although in the grand scheme of things the safety of the ship's passengers, crew, and goods are far more important than the winner of a sporting contest. But we can still take our emotional stake and put it in the 7th house, if that emotion is aimed at our enemy, "our" team becomes "our" team by default. Any team would do.

This is the basis of my reasoning, and I hope it makes more sense this time.

Back to work.

Tom

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Hello all

Very interesting comments, all. I agree with most of all. I think I should join the conversation since I wrote the article that generated the talk.
The reason for assigning the 5th house to Liverpool was that the querent (Goca, actually) was interested if Liverpool would win the championship, and not if Liverpool would win a particular match. At the moment when she asked the question, the second leg match between PSV Eindhoven and Milan hadn't been played, and Liverpool opponent in the final was not known.
I treated this question as if it would have been asked at the very beginning of the championship, if this particular team would win the championship. So, in this chart, there is no other team. But I might be wrong.

In other questions like "Who will win: C.Zvezda or Partizan?'" (both teams from the Serbian champiosnhip), asked also by Goca, I assigned the 5th house to the first team mentioned in the question (C.Zvezda) and the turned 7th from the 5th (radix 11th) to the second team, Partizan. It worked just fine, indicating a draw.

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Poor Tom,

You sound quite stressed that we are all grabbing at the opportunity to converse with you :) (We have to take our chances while we can, you?ve been quiet for a while)

Absolutely agree that

a) the shipping charts bring in other issues
b) anyone we conceive of as an opponent or enemy or adversary takes the 7th house position.

But that was sort of my point. Why put Liverpool, the focus of the question, on the 7th house, unless it is taken as the team that opposes the querent?s interests and we need to recognise this hostility?

It makes perfect sense that Lilly attributes fugitives and unidentified thieves to the 7th house because these people either threaten us or are hunted by us. (Just as he assigns hunters to the 1st and the prey to the 7th). But I think it is a confused association between ?fugitives? and ?missing persons? that leads a lot of horary astrologers to assume that if they ask a question about another person who appears to be missing or lost, they assign them to the 7th house (let?s say, for example, ?where is the missing man I read about in the local paper??). I?ve seen a lot of astrologers claiming to be following Lilly?s rules in assigning such people to the 7th but they haven?t recognised the important distinction between people who draw our concern, and people who take up positions of opposition.

Where this relates to this post is that I think it is out of this confusion that astrologers often assume that if the relationship between the querent and the quesited is ?casual? or ?general? the quesited is attributed to the 7th house.

So that?s my argument why I don?t think Lilly would have used the 7th house here.
The answer as to which house to use is the always infallible, "It depends."
This is a great rule. The context of the question is always the defining element, and we can?t make any signification until we understand how the querent is involved, or why they care about it.
This goes back to the very basic idea that the querent has to ask a sincere question. Sue made this point and I didn't answer her correctly. Simply put: no interest - no chart.
Too true. The querent always has a bias of being sympathetic or antipathetic to the quesited, and the problem with this article, which makes the signification arguable to others, is that it hasn?t been explained.

Sorry for distracting you
You can get back to work now :)
Deb

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My last post crossed with yours Siraxi. I still don?t understand the querent?s motivation for asking the question. But where you say ?in this chart, there is no other team? it does help to explain why you went to the 5th house.