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bob dylan - the sidereal viewpoint

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Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 4016
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject: bob dylan - the sidereal viewpoint Reply with quote

hey konrad and everyone into sidereal,

i am interested in hearing what you have to say on dylans chart via the sidereal viewpoint...

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Therese Hamilton

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1861
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are various schools of sidereal astrology. Konrad specializes in traditional Hellenistic principles. I tend to combine factors from western traditional astrology and Jyotish such as the Hellenistic terms and Jyotish dasas. I've had a look at Dylan's chart, and see how it works well sidereally....will post details as time allows.
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Therese Hamilton

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1861
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Dylan, Part 1

Contemporary tropical astrology has become very eclectic. If traditional concepts donít fit what we know about a person, often astrologers will find a round-about way to explain a factor in a personís life. Sidereal astrology operates in a different way. Traditional concepts must fit the life of the person, so sidereal astrologers in both west and east tend to be faithful to astrological tradition.

Sidereal astrologers stay with traditional concepts because we see that they work in practice. Many of us converted from the tropical zodiac when we observed that traditional concepts too often failed in that zodiac. Thatís why many converts tend to be ďtrue believers,Ē and donít look back to a zodiac that is no longer accepted as valid. (I see tropical seasonal rhythms specific to a hemisphere (but not tropical 'signs') as having validity.

The controversial beginning point of the sidereal zodiac has become more or less a moot point as the only ayanamsa that has been extensively researched through various cultures resulted in what is known as the Indian government sponsored Lahiri ayanamsa. This ayanamsa is extremely close to Mesopotamian and Hellenistic values. A few astrologers such as myself have found the small 6 minute adjustment to the Krishnamurti value more precise in measuring dasas and sub-periods.

Life Patterns in a Birth Chart

Itís impossible to see how a life will turn out without some kind of reliable timing system. (Iíd be interested in the time lord system that Konrad uses.) I lay out lives with the Krishnamurti style Jyotish Vimshottari dasas, which Iíll relate to Dylanís life below. Without a timing system we have no way of knowing which planets in the natal chart will manifest outwardly, or if they will even manifest at all. All natal planets are not equal for everyone.

Iíll discuss two factors in Dylanís life: His basic nature and extraordinary fame. As I donít have time for further research, Iím using the notes posted on the ADB site for Dylanís life. These seem to be taken mainly from Dylanís Wiki biography which in turn referenced other sources.

Dylanís Basic Nature
According to Robert Schmidt, in several Hellenistic texts three planets were singled out for special importance in delineating the chart. These are the domicile lord of the ascendant, the domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune and the trigon lords of the sect light (Sun for day births, Moon for night births). The most personal of these planets is the domicile lord of the ascendant.

Bob Dylan has a sidereal Scorpio ascendant; thus, Mars is the ascendant lord. Dylanís basic personality as listed in ADB (taken from Wiki and other sources) could be called ďa lesson in Gauquelin planetary traits.Ē Mars in Aquarius is in mutual reception with Saturn in Aries. Saturn itself is closely conjunct the Moon.

This mutual reception if locked into place. No dispositor displaces the influence of Saturn and the Moon on the ascendant lord Mars. It is a tight mutual configuration. Iím listing here Dylanís personality traits from the ADB biography. In parenthesis after each trait are related traits taken from the published Gauquelin trait lists.

shy, defensive, a bit afraid of fame (withdrawn, mistrustful, fearful)
quiet, bashful [from his teachers] (silent, timid, reserved, introverted)
profound (profound)
intellectual (intellectual)

As a poet (poetic)
Ďimaginativeí Dylanís description of his youth doesnít match observational reports from others. (prone to illusions, dreamer)
careless of health (careless)
unpredictable (capricious, volatile)
moody (changeable, inconstant)
illusive pubic image (changeable, inconstant); modern: Neptune in 10th
diverse musical genre (versatile, ingenious)

There is no need to look all over the birth chart for Dylanís basic nature. The majority of his personality traits can be linked to the Moon conjunct Saturn in mutual reception with the ascendant lord.

Continued in Part 2: Astrological signatures for outstanding fame

Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 695

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Iíd be interested in the time lord system that Konrad uses.

Hi Therese,

I use the pretty bog-standard technique of directing the Hyleg and ASC through the bounds coupled with the profected ASC and solar revolution as outlined by Abu Ma'shar in Ben Dykes' translation series Persian Nativities. This method highlights a few important planets for each year that we can construct a delineation from based on natal promise and the accidents of the revolution. I don't really see much else working out consistently in either zodiac.
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Therese Hamilton

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1861
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Konrad,

If you have time, it would be interesting to compare the Hellenistic techniques with the Indian Dasas/sub-periods for key periods in Dylan's life. Are the same planets prominent? But first I have to finish my post amidst hectic life circumstances right now--hoping to finish this evening. These are two very different approaches to timing, but both are sidereal.
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Therese Hamilton

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1861
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part 2: Bob Dylan, Iconic Fame

As a general note, Dylanís fame as as musician, songwriter, and poet is suggested by the stellium of planets in Venus-ruled Taurus: Uranus, Jupiter, Sun and Venus. Venus itself is angular below the 7th cusp.

As an icon for a generation and beyond, we have Rahu and Neptune in the 10th house. This isnít traditional classical astrology, but a prominent Rahu appears in charts of events that affect large numbers of people, and Neptune is without bounds. Both of these are in a mansion of the Sun, 10th lord. The beta star of Leo, Denebola, is in the degree of the 10th cusp (nonagesimal).

House Division
After study and experimenting, some years ago I settled on what is sometimes called the Raman-Vehlow house system which highlights aspects to the ascendant: the cusp at the center of equal 30 degree houses. A cursory look at Dylanís chart raises questions about the large group of planets in the 6th house. I suspect this is puzzling to many astrologers at first glance.

The Perfect Trine
The story of Bob Dylanís fame and popularity could be sub-titled, ďThe Power of the Trine.Ē Morin recognized the linkage of trinal houses in the Cabal of the Twelve Houses Astrological...Ēthat of all Aspects the Trine is the most perfect...Ē The importance of the trine is emphasized in Jyotish as each of the 27 lunar mansions is trine two others having the same Vimshottari planetary lord.

Dylan has sidereal Leo on the cusp of the 10th house (nonagesimal). The Moon and Saturn closely aspect this point via trine from the 6th house; the Moonís aspect is partile within only a few minutes. Rahu and Neptune are positioned in the 10th. Jupiter, Uranus and the Sun trine Rahu and Neptune from the 6th. Every planet (except the Sun) that trines the cusp of 10th or Rahu-Neptune is positioned in Krittika, a mansion of the Sun. When any of those planets come into power via a Dasa or sub-period, the 10th house lord, Sun, will be activated.

In Dylanís chart if the MC is considered to be the cusp of the 10th house, the trinal symbolism and aspects to the 10th are lost. However, Venus is trine the MC which would emphasize that planet in Dylanís life. This is important as a musician and songwriter, but doesnít pack the punch of five planets aspecting the 10th.

Dylanís commercial success came in the summer of 1963. In July 1963 Dylan entered Rahuís dasa, Rahu being in the 10th in 10th lord Sunís mansion, and aspected by Sun, Jupiter (and Uranus) also in The Sunís mansion from Venus-ruled Taurus. This points to the mega exposure Dylan experienced when only in his early 20s.

Dylanís 1963 sidereal solar return (revolution) fully supports his rocket ship to fame. Just as the Sunís tenant Rahuís dasa began in 1963, so in the solar return for that year natal Sun is at the zenith/MC bracketed by Jupiter and Venus. The natal 10th sign is on the ascendant with (modern) Pluto a degree away. This solar return is extremely dramatic.

On April 7, 2008 Dylan became the first rock musician to win a Pulitzer. At this time Dylan was within the long 19 year Saturn dasa and the Sunís sub-period.

In 1916: Bob Dylan officially received his Nobel Literature diploma and medal. ďThe American singer-songwriter received his award during a small gathering Saturday afternoon. It took place at a hotel near where Dylan was performing a concert later that night. the ceremony was reportedly a small and intimate event. This was in line with Dylanís wishes, with only academy members and a member of Dylanís staff attending.Ē (San Francisco Chronicle, 14 October 2016)

When Dylan was awarded his Nobel prize, he had just entered Mercuryís Dasa (literature), Mercury being positioned just above the 7th house cusp in a mansion of Mars, Dylanís ascendant lord. In keeping with his natal Saturn influence, Dylan wanted only a small event.

Although Mercury is angular, it is weakly placed, only six minutes into Gemini, its domicile. Mansion lord Mars is not strongly positioned in Dylanís nativity, and we can expect a gradual fading and almost certainly death for Dylan in Mercuryís 17 year dasa, as Mercury is 8th lord and in the 7th, opposite the ascendant, Life. Also Mercury has its classical Joy in the first house, and highest status in the first in Jyotish, so the 7th cusp is the weakest position for Mercury in a natal chart.

All events in Dylan's life can be timed through Vimshottari dasas and sub-periods. The planet ruling the next period down (the third) generally describes events: Venus for marriage, Mars for conflict or trouble, etc.

Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Therese Hamilton

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1861
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dylan's Navamsa Planets
I forgot to mention the planets in Dylan's navamsa chart. Generally navamsa signs are considered to be stronger than natal signs since planets pass through navamsas quickly compared to their natal positions. So:

Natal ascendant lord Mars is exalted in Capricorn.

Natal tenth lord Sun is exalted in Aries.

Jupiter (2nd natal lord, voice, livlihood) and (5th natal lord, good fortune, children) is on the Pisces ascendant in its own sign.
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